Why wait until the end of the season?

[Kinell]

8 points behind Villa now who occupy fourth who we play on the 29th at Villa.

It's a sad comparison really our make or break game last year was at Old Trafford as we were going for the league, this year it's Villa park as we do our best for fourth spot.

If we fail to take three points on that day I'd be in favour of allowing a new manager 5 months with the current team to bring something fresh and get us back on track for next season.

[vlahka]

Its bad enough watching all our games with 1 striker and 2 defensive midfielders, but when he pulls out 5 defenders that really just makes me scream.

[hertsred]

I think the time has come for a new manager, but it has to be done right and I have no confidence that the Wanks can do that. Someone should be quietly identified and a plan agreed on moving forward. He should come in before Christmas and have the cash to bring in a new striker of good quality. He has the season to rescue, with the Europa League the best we can realistically hope for next year. Then use the World Cup as a rebuilding period and move into next season ready to do better. Rafa has had long enough. He can't cope with the Prem. He can't manage an attacking team. He has to go.

[RichC]

At the end of the day things are not good enough for a club of Liverpools stature.

Rafa isn't the only one to blame; as someone said earlier the players really need to take a long hard look at themselves and really think "do I deserve to be wearing this shirt", the owners haven't helped either but they haven't helped since they turned up.

BUT at the end of the day this is a results business and Rafa is paid pretty god damn well to get these results with picking the right players, getting them motivated and sorting the tactics for the game.

Simply put the buck stops with him and I don't think this season he has picked the right players, right tactics and he certainly hasn't motivated anyone!

Even if we finish 4th and pick up the Europa League for me thats still woefully short of what we should be achieving.

Sometimes a manager takes a team as far as he can - Rafa I believe has reached this position, it really is time for a change and sooner rather than later.







A

[-V-]

Some very good posts in here. I don't have the energy for much of a post but let me just defend Carra and Mascher.

Carra is not finished. Any defender put in his position would struggle right now. We play too deep and invite pressure on us all game every game. That makes his job 10 times harder, he looks like he is struggling because he is having to run around like a madman fighting fires everywhere. If we had a good positive attacking team then guys like Carra wouldn't look a mess.

Mascher- I think he's been one of our best performers recently, one of the few players who are battling. He's been fighting 10 times harder than the captain ffs. We would be lost without Mascher. If you look through the man of the match threads on here u will see how good he's been. The sending off was harsh but its the result of a guy having to make desperate moves all game long as a result of our poor negative performances

[RichC]

I think your comments about Carra and Masch are spot on.

You invite constant pressure onto a defence they are goingt to look stretched from time to time, Carra has picked his game up recently but defending isn't a one man gang (bar Pepe obviously who's been outstanding all season!)

Masch also works his socks off, got the tackle wrong yesterday red card and an injury, can't in my eyes fault his effort at the moment.

[lickedlollipop]

1 Brazil GK Diego Cavalieri
2 England DF Glen Johnson
4 Italy MF Alberto Aquilani
5 Denmark DF Daniel Agger
8 England MF Steven Gerrard (captain)
9 Spain FW Fernando Torres
10 Ukraine FW Andriy Voronin
11 Spain MF Albert Riera
12 Brazil DF Fábio Aurélio
15 Israel MF Yossi Benayoun
16 Greece DF Sotirios Kyrgiakos
18 Netherlands FW Dirk Kuyt
19 Netherlands FW Ryan Babel
20 Argentina MF Javier Mascherano
21 Brazil MF Lucas
22 Argentina DF Emiliano Insúa
23 England DF Jamie Carragher (vice-captain)
24 France FW David N'Gog
25 Spain GK Pepe Reina
26 England MF Jay Spearing
27 Switzerland DF Philipp Degen
28 France MF Damien Plessis
31 Morocco MF Nabil El Zhar
32 England DF Stephen Darby
34 England DF Martin Kelly
36 England DF Steve Irwin
37 Slovakia DF Martin Škrtel
38 Italy DF Andrea Dossena
39 England FW Nathan Eccleston
40 Spain DF Daniel Sánchez Ayala
41 Denmark GK Martin Hansen
42 Hungary GK Péter Gulácsi
46 England MF David Amoo
47 Spain FW Daniel Pacheco

+ Nemeth on loan

nevermind the youngsters, but... how many players on that list actually deserve to wear our shirt? i mean, Sotirios ****in Kyrgiakos will once say to his grandson, that he played for liverpool fc... **** me, i'd die for this club

[Baracus]

i don't think rafa has the trust or confidence of the players anymore

There's no passion in our outfield players anymore. Last season we would play to till the last second in vain to win the game or grab a draw. This season so far there is a lack of confidence in our ability and a lack of desire to actually force the issue. The players don't play for the club nor the manager with purpose or meaning. They have all had a fairly big rise in wages and you would expect alot more.

You can make a thousand different mistakes, as long as you learn from them and never make the same one twice.

[Paul12]

i don't think rafa has the trust or confidence of the players anymore

I have supported Rafa up to now, but I agree with you. The players like us know that:
1 Johnson needs an arm around him; if Rafa wasn't going to do that, he shouldn't have signed him.
2 Gerrard is not playing at 100%. Either Rafa has told him to play within himself and week by week he is getting fitter or (and I fear this is more likely true) Rafa has told him that a half fit Gerrard now and surgery at the end of the season suits Liverpool better than surgery now.
3 When Torres is not fit (or not playing) and Gerrard is not fit, the 4-2-3-1 formation with Torres upfront on his own and Gerrad behind him does not work. He needs to play 4-4-2.
4 Rafa's public statements are not credible.
5 Other managers with fewer resources than Rafa are currently getting more out of their team than Rafa.

I would get rid of Rafa now, even if it means putting a temporary manager in charge until the end of the season. Appointing Klinsmann would be a huge mistake, but I think LFC are still a top club and it would not be difficult to appoint a top class replacement. Of course, success can never be guaranteed, but better performances and better league positions than Spurs, Villa, Fulham and Birmingham should be - and that is not the case at the moment.

[Icon]

1 Brazil GK Diego Cavalieri - Hmmm
2 England DF Glen Johnson - Yes
4 Italy MF Alberto Aquilani - Yes
5 Denmark DF Daniel Agger - Yes
8 England MF Steven Gerrard (captain) - Yes
9 Spain FW Fernando Torres - Yes
10 Ukraine FW Andriy Voronin - No
11 Spain MF Albert Riera - Hmmm
12 Brazil DF Fábio Aurélio - Hmm
15 Israel MF Yossi Benayoun - Yes
16 Greece DF Sotirios Kyrgiakos - No
18 Netherlands FW Dirk Kuyt - Hmmm
19 Netherlands FW Ryan Babel - No
20 Argentina MF Javier Mascherano - Yes
21 Brazil MF Lucas - No
22 Argentina DF Emiliano Insúa - No
23 England DF Jamie Carragher (vice-captain) - Yes but slowing
24 France FW David N'Gog - Yes for a while longer
25 Spain GK Pepe Reina - Yes
26 England MF Jay Spearing - Not yet
27 Switzerland DF Philipp Degen -No
28 France MF Damien Plessis - No
31 Morocco MF Nabil El Zhar - Hmmm
32 England DF Stephen Darby - Not yet
34 England DF Martin Kelly - Yes
36 England DF Steve Irwin - Not yet
37 Slovakia DF Martin Škrtel - Hmmm
38 Italy DF Andrea Dossena - No
39 England FW Nathan Eccleston - Yes from what Ive seen
40 Spain DF Daniel Sánchez Ayala - No
41 Denmark GK Martin Hansen - Hmmm
42 Hungary GK Péter Gulácsi -???
46 England MF David Amoo - Yes
47 Spain FW Daniel Pacheco - Yes

+ Nemeth on loan - Come back!

Hmm = clock is very much ticking...

[Paul12]

I was at the Fulham v Manure game yesterday, and Murphy showed more imagination in the first 15 minutes alone than the whole of Liverpool in theit game against Pompey, and the right back (Pantsil, a player bought from a lower division and then coached to be better) showd more positional sense than eith LFC fullback. Fulham as a whole were better organised than LFC have been all season, and were frankly more exciting to watch than LFC have been almost all season.

So don't tell me it is about injuries or about lack of funds.

[Vermilion]

This is all to do with injuries and a lack of funding. imo.

[Pablo]

This is all to do with injuries and a lack of funding. imo.

[dww]

This is all to do with injuries and a lack of funding. imo.

I think there are a variety of reasons beyond that actually - some of which Rafa has had control of, some of which not.

If you look at teams like Arsenal and United (and Chelsea more and more actually) the squad depth comes from players bought through a coordinated development program. In recent years we have had struggles between Melwood and the Academy and changes in personnel and battles for control and the end result (whoever is to blame and depending on who you listen to Rafa might bear some responsibility) is that we have fewer players ready to step in.

Rafa's approach is based on the unit and tactical understanding between players. He has kept to the same policies despite out injury crisis. I like that part of him normally but the crisis was longer than expected and with our lack of depth I think this policy exacerbated the effects.

We play a game based on control of the game and when this type of football fails it looks bad.

We lost two leaders and a utility defender in the summer and replaced Alonso as a player potentially and improved attacking wise our right back but lost understanding and leadership in the group. Obviously greater funding could have given us replacements but we could potentially have held on to players until January unless we were forced into taking offers for debt repayment reasons.

I think there is a problem with Gerrard when he or the team are playing badly conflicting with the way Rafa works. Gerrard wants to take more responsibility personally and Rafa wants the unit to take the strain. Both seem to work against one another until the team clicks. While I think it is a bad long term solution I think Rafa might have been well advised man management-wise to drop Gerrard into CM more often. The alternative would have been to move him wide where he was less tied to specific responsibilities and set up the team to make the most of his roaming from there.

Overall though I think we should wait until the end of the season for two reasons:
1/ Rafa is in my opinion the man to turn things round and more importantly long term to build up the club from the bottom (i.e. youth levels) up. Other managers who people suggest don't seem ever to have built an infrastructure and sacking someone willing to do that for a short term fix will make things worse in seasons to come.

2/ I don't think we are as far off as some make out. A good month and the outlook would change. Combined with the fact we won't have big money to spend I think the prudent course is to stick with someone who knows teh squad and used most of them well last season.

Obviously there are factors that could change my mind - for instance if the majority of players seemed irreconcilable against him. In general I feel that people are too quick to judge this sort of thing and while I fully expect people to say that this has obviously already happened I think that Dunk-like interpretations of body language and the age old art of looking at people playing badly and saying they aren't trying aren't the ways to judge for me.

[the rev leeroy brown]

after quite easily the ****test performance of the season where not a single player showed any fight, passion, creativity or confidence we really have no option IMO but to replace rafa ASAP. he is slowly but surely destroying the club. he got too big for his boots in the summer wanting so much control and now it's showing. he cant handle the job no more. he sends out team after team of **** players and quite honsetly our best player on the pitch yesterday was dossena but again rafa leaves the argentine useless midget insua on the pitch when making a sub. no width, no creativity, no confidecne and it all stops with one man......rafa. please rafa walk away now and give us a chance to get top 4 this year cause we will not get it with you. right now our rivals are birmingham anf ulham and the fight for europa league qualification next year. nto good enough.