Should we sell Gerrard, Torres and Masher for a new beginning?

[The_weatherman]

Lucas has played 54 league games, Mascher 73, and they have both scored one goal each. What is it that Lucas does in the box exactly? Hiding? Mascherano is 11 times the player Lucas is.

I didn't say he scored more. He offers more going forward IMO, and he is well capable of playing the defensive midfielder as well, Mascher gets himself suspended way too much and has frequent bad spells, which can last a full season. Lucas doing Mascher's job will probably not have much effect on how we play or perform.

[Rowan]

I didn't say he scored more. He offers more going forward IMO, and he is well capable of playing the defensive midfielder as well, Mascher gets himself suspended way too much and has frequent bad spells, which can last a full season. Lucas doing Mascher's job will probably not have much effect on how we play or perform.

For me it's more simple. Provided Rafa didn't go out and buy ANOTHER defensive midfielder letting Mascher go would to an extent remove the temptation of playing a team full of defenders. I'm not entirely sold on the idea that to be successful a team needs to have the best defensive midfielder in the world, especially not at the expense of offensive, expansive play. I think Lucas is up to the job but don't feel he is as effective. So I agree with you, the difference between not as effective or effective enough is probably the discussion that needs to be had.

Take in to account the fact that one day Aquilani might be fit again and we can always drop Stevie back there if needed (he's getting on and his legs won't last forever so he may as well get used to the idea that he'll be a defensive midfielder again one day) then I personally believe we will be none the worse off in the grand scheme of things without one of our def mids. Plus it gives us a chance to promote Spearing, Pacheco etc.

So just to be clear! What I'm saying is that given the choice I would rather have Mascherano and no other defensive midfielder in the team. However, I don't think we would suffer massively by his loss, as I firmly believe we would if we were to sell Gerrard and especially Torres, as Lucas is more than capable of doing the job, just to a marginally lesser extent.

[scully]

Wow. Even more pointless than "pee or poo"? Even more demented than "I'm a KT refugee"? That's some statement Scully

Probably fair though

Macher I can see an argument for selling, primarily if he really wants to go to Spain - we can't expect to keep some foreign players for ever and although on form he;s one of the best on the world at what he does, he's not irreplaceable. Torres and Gerrard are.

Those threads are absolutely essential to the nation's well-being, this one's just Fantasy Football dementia of the most depressing kind.

Though arguing that Lucas could do Mascherano's job as well as him is extremely naive, I've got to say I'm often disappointed in Mascher and do believe that, if we want to raise decent money selling any of our players, I'd put his name forward. Torres and Gerrard are at the top of a list of no-noes that would also include Reina, Carra (off-form, yes, but indispensable and likely to regain it), Benayoun, Ngog and Johnson (if switched to midfield). I'd also sell Kuyt.

[saveferris]

I dont see the benefit in selling any of our best players (unless they want to leave). We have seen from the Alonso sale that despite getting an excellent fee for him very little has gone back into transfer funds for new players. If we were to get say £100mill for those 3 players I think the owners would see it as a great way to reduce he debt, therefore I wouldnt sell any of the three.

As for the debate on Sunday supplement, its clearly sensationalist rubbish.

[Redspin]

Mind offcially blown. Now I am not dead against selling Mascherano, especially if he wants out and someone offers silly money. But I do not understand how you can suggest Lucas is superior to Mascher in ANY respect.
Tackling? Fail.
Energy? Fail.
Passing? Fail.
Strength? Fail.
Aggression? Fail.
Winning mentality? Fail.
Fail, Fail, Fail.

The only area where Lucas really is tremendously awesome, truly one of the best in the world, is making short, safe passes sideways and backwards while near the halfway line. I'll give him that.

I hate watching him play in a red shirt, and the sooner Aquilani and Mascher are regular starters the better.

I'm afraid you're talking absolute bollocks. To take just one of your deluded points, Lucas is a far superior passer of the ball. He's always looking for a forward pass and very, very rarely wastes a pass - try watching one of our games and you'll see. We're on tonight and we're the away team in case you're not sure.

Mascherano is more of a destroyer than Lucas and it's fair to say that his red and yellow card count shows that tackling - successfully - is not his strongest point.

As well as being a better passer, Lucas has far better close control, is far better in the air and always gives 100%, which I would think comes under any of "energy", "strength" or " aggression".

Please let me know how you quantify this notion of "winning mentality" that Mascherano apparently excels at. When I know what you're on about I'll respond.

Lucas has been a rare success story this season. Along with Johnson he's been our most consistent performer. He's certainly been head and shoulders ahead of Gerrard in our midfield this season, great player though he undoubtedly is when fully fit. This season he's been well behind Lucas in contributing to the midfield. If you think otherwise then you don't know your Arsenal from your Everton

[EwarWoo]

If we were to get say £100 for those 3 players I think the owners would see it as a great way to reduce he debt, therefore I wouldnt sell any of the three.

100 quid? A bit cheap

[saveferris]

100 quid? A bit cheap

just a bit, at least rafa might get the cash for them.

[Spionkop69]

I can't believe any Liverpool fan who thinks its a viable football decision to sell those 3 three players and start again. Why stop there, lets sell the lot of them, wait until we find our level, and then await the next Shankly.... yawn

[The_weatherman]

I can't believe any Liverpool fan who thinks its a viable football decision to sell those 3 three players and start again. Why stop there, lets sell the lot of them, wait until we find our level, and then await the next Shankly.... yawn

Our first XI now looks something like:

Reina

Johnson Carra Agger Insua

Aquilani Mascher

Kuyt Gerrard Benni

Torres

If selling Mascher meant it looked something like this, I'd be all for it:

Reina

Johnson Carra Agger Insua

Aquilani Lucas

Kuyt Gerrard Silva

Torres

Maybe with spare change for the bench and keeping Benni and Riera as well, our squad would be stronger IMO.

[dww]

I don't think we have enough top quality players to be able to sell them lightly, that's for sure. I'd rather we hung onto him, and if he were to be sold I'd want to see a substantial profit, not a small one. But his sale wouldn't have even close to the effect that of Gerrard or Torres would at the present time, imo those would be a disaster, so if someone had to be sold I'd rather it were him.

Realistically with his contract running down I don't see us getting a really large profit on him. I guess we might be able to negotiate a good part exchange though.

I can see the argument that Mascherano is a good enough player to mean we should try to retain him no matter what but I think the counter argument is that he is a type of player that makes specific demands of those around him. He contributes nothing aerially, has limited passing and offers minimal attacking threat. As such all these areas need compensation from other players. In particular we have struggled this season to deal with carrying a player who can't head and doesn't help us get play quickly from defense to attack.

I'm in two minds because if he and Aquilani strike up a good partnership then we could be back to a situation similar to last year which gave us a very flexible base which allowed us to best use a number of variations of our attacking players. If we could upgrade Babel and Voronin within the squad then it may even be possible for us to have multiple selections that could accommodate Lucas and Mascherano. Without that though I feel that he represents a bit of a bottleneck in terms of being able to find good combinations when we are under full strength.

[saj]

Mind offcially blown. Now I am not dead against selling Mascherano, especially if he wants out and someone offers silly money. But I do not understand how you can suggest Lucas is superior to Mascher in ANY respect.
Tackling? Fail.
Energy? Fail.
Passing? Fail.
Strength? Fail.
Aggression? Fail.
Winning mentality? Fail.
Fail, Fail, Fail.

Tackling - erm Masch far better at sweep/slide tackling, but Lucas is much better at standing up and tackling.
Energy - they both seem to have an equal amount of energy
Passing - Both are average passers and frequently pass backwards and sidewards. Occasionally Lucas has created the odd goal/ goalscoring opportunity with Xabi-esque passes (St James Park - Gerrards 2nd goal)
Strength - they're both ****ing midgets (well, under 6ft) and when it comes to strength neither of them can hold/shield the ball as well as Hamann or Alonso could.
Aggresion - what the **** is this meant to mean. Fighthing? The both of them give away pointless fouls.
Winning mentality - tell me how you measure this Mr clueless

Here are some more categories:

Temperament - I think you'll find that Masch has a very poor temperament and I think he deserved to be sent off at Portsmouth. Lucas always seems to remain pretty calm and just gets on with the game. Add to that, the number of times Masch fakes an injury especially when he's fouled someone badly is pretty pathetic.

Box to Box - Lucas this season has proven he can get into box and can get to the byline. Masch rarely gets into these positions.

Whilst I would say Masch a better player, clearly he has issues. And clearly, his future lies away from Anfield. You can dream over the perfect partnership of Aqui/Masch, but the fact is Masch will be gone very soon. If Rafa/Lucas really concetrated on that holding role, I think he could potentially be better than Masch in a few years.

[saj]

Our first XI now looks something like:

Reina

Johnson Carra Agger Insua

Aquilani Mascher

Kuyt Gerrard Benni

Torres

If selling Mascher meant it looked something like this, I'd be all for it:

Reina

Johnson Carra Agger Insua

Aquilani Lucas

Kuyt Gerrard Silva

Torres

Maybe with spare change for the bench and keeping Benni and Riera as well, our squad would be stronger IMO.

I like your second lineup but the likelihood of us signing Silva is slim to none. He's going to cost £30M+ and trust me, he's not worth it. Mata is far superior and valued at a lot less. Silva doesn't even play on the wing and he definately doesn't fit into our system. He would do well at Barcelona and possibly Arsenal.

Mata is amazing - I've watched him play for Valencia numerous time and he has been immense. Short but very strng. He gets to the byline, can provide assists and has a strike rate that most strikers would be proud of. Failing that, the link with Turan seems to be hotting up. I've only watched him play when Galatasaray played at anfield a few years ago. Supposedly, he's better than all the players mentioned above.

[el matador]

if we are talking about a defensive midfielder then lucas isn't even a scott parker let alone be a viable alternative to masher. the point about selling the 3 players was talked about by one of the journalists and I thought it was valid.

whether you agree or not selling those 3 players would give benitez the finance he needs to take the club forward.

if rafael was promised all of the money to strengthen the side it could be an option.

[javier_monsterano]

I would not mind us selling monsterano if it meant we could bring in
3 ok maybe not 3 but 2 quality players.
arda turan/mata/defour.buy 3 of them infact,surely the american ****ers can loosen the purse strings a little.

[bertie]

This is the most pointless and demented thread I've ever seen.

... what these cockney based lazy journo's are WISHING about our club is not news.