Enough ?

[Kenneth]

We haven't played great but at the same time we have not played as poorly as some make out and I do think there have been signs that parts of the team are coming together - the problem being that every time this looks like being the case more injuries come along or something like the weather disrupts us getting a run of games back to back where we gain momentum.

That really is grasping at straws mate. The weather. I mean ffs.

[dww]

That really is grasping at straws mate. The weather. I mean ffs.

It wasn't really supposed to be a big point. It's just an observation that everything that could go wrong has this season.

[BobTheCharmer]

That really is grasping at straws mate. The weather. I mean ffs.

it was bad though, there was snow everywhere.

[Vermilion]

It wasn't really supposed to be a big point. It's just an observation that everything that could go wrong has this season.

[BobTheCharmer]

It wasn't really supposed to be a big point. It's just an observation that everything that could go wrong has this season.

didn't the weather effect others too? or are we too busy wallowing in self pity? I think we as fans are guilty of this.

[dww]

didn't the weather effect others too? or are we too busy wallowing in self pity? I think we as fans are guilty of this.

Of course it did I'm not saying it didn't. It was more that we have had a **** run of luck and when an opportunity to turn things around with consecutive games against opponents for the top four came along we won one and then the other was called off (the club bears a level of responsibility for this obviously). All I was meaning is that I think we need to have the same group of players play together as a team without disruption for a few games back to back without break to create a proper unit (which has happened in other seasons) and we will I am confident improve.

In the last few seasons in general both ourselves and United have required a number of games to get get our teams working well with at least the defensive unit kept consistent. The may well be a failing of the way the managers set up their teams - that would certainly be a fair criticism of Rafa in my view. This season we have singularly failed to do anything of the sort which I feel has had a major impact on the way our season has gone.

[BobTheCharmer]

Of course it did I'm not saying it didn't. It was more that we have had a **** run of luck and when an opportunity to turn things around with consecutive games against opponents for the top four came along we won one and then the other was called off (the club bears a level of responsibility for this obviously). All I was meaning is that I think we need to have the same group of players play together as a team without disruption for a few games back to back without break to create a proper unit (which has happened in other seasons) and we will I am confident improve.

In the last few seasons in general both ourselves and United have required a number of games to get get our teams working well with at least the defensive unit kept consistent. The may well be a failing of the way the managers set up their teams - that would certainly be a fair criticism of Rafa in my view. This season we have singularly failed to do anything of the sort which I feel has had a major impact on the way our season has gone.

I take that point on mate and agree. It was an added disruption that we could have done without. But in reality I think Rafa has lost the respect of some key players and without that he's a dead man walking. Why after having a decent game against Reading didn't Darby start? Carra sings his praises and lo and behold, Degen is back from the cold (although I thought he had a decent game). He doesn't want to keep a settled back four. Regardless of the result we were rubbish and out played by a poor championship team over TWO games.

[Kenneth]

It wasn't really supposed to be a big point. It's just an observation that everything that could go wrong has this season.

Fair does, I was just being picky. Injuries have caused havoc to our team selections, but it's not like we have a history of playing a settled team. Unfortunately, we've lost our better players.

The **** form has snowballed due to confidence I think, with body blows at just the wrong times. We started the season badly, but should have recovered after a game or two but lost to Villa. Then we needed a sending off to win against Bolton. Then we won a few, got some injuries, got ****ted by Fiorentina, Chelsea and lost to Sunderland. That's when we seemed to hit a threashold where the team stopped thinking they were unlucky and lost their bottle. The win against Utd should have stopped the rot but we were unlucky to be playing, and to lose to, Arsenal which killed any confidence boost. Fiorentina's last minute winner at Anfield also killed off any feel good about the derby win.

[dww]

I take that point on mate and agree. It was an added disruption that we could have done without. But in reality I think Rafa has lost the respect of some key players and without that he's a dead man walking.

I'm not sure about this. I certainly think that a problem is that there are no senior players in the team who naturally play Rafa's sort of possession based football. When Alonso came despite his talk of never being personally close to Rafa he just 'got it' and seemed to have been a born leader (was captain of Sociedad at a very early age). It's much to early to write of Aquilani but he doesn't appear to have that presence.

It has been said several times in the past when things aren't going for us that Rafa has 'lost the dressing room'. I'm not sure that it is easy to tell with Rafa - unlike Mourinho for example he doesn't set out to have a cult of personality so I'm not sure he ever owns the dressing room in the same way.

From my point of view I think it looks like a lot of players still are working for the team but things aren't quite coming off. It is obviously Rafa' sjob to sort that out though.

Why after having a decent game against Reading didn't Darby start? Carra sings his praises and lo and behold, Degen is back from the cold (although I thought he had a decent game). He doesn't want to keep a settled back four. Regardless of the result we were rubbish and out played by a poor championship team over TWO games.

A plausible answer is that Rafa wanted to see both given a chance before deciding which to stick with for the coming month or so while Johnson is out. I guess we shall see in the coming weeks whether he does want a settled back four or not. If he keeps changing then it will start to worry me.

[Vermilion]

didn't the weather effect others too? or are we too busy wallowing in self pity? I think we as fans are guilty of this.

Yes, but their needs as a team are different to ours, we needed games to gain momentum is the point dww was making i think.

[dww]

Fair does, I was just being picky. Injuries have caused havoc to our team selections, but it's not like we have a history of playing a settled team. Unfortunately, we've lost our better players.

I think we do largely though (at least in defense), certainly we did last year. In general we have in the past changed teams to suit the opposition we face which is very different to changing to whoever is the most fit.

The **** form has snowballed due to confidence I think, with body blows at just the wrong times. We started the season badly, but should have recovered after a game or two but lost to Villa. Then we needed a sending off to win against Bolton. Then we won a few, got some injuries, got ****ted by Fiorentina, Chelsea and lost to Sunderland. That's when we seemed to hit a threashold where the team stopped thinking they were unlucky and lost their bottle. The win against Utd should have stopped the rot but we were unlucky to be playing, and to lose to, Arsenal which killed any confidence boost. Fiorentina's last minute winner at Anfield also killed off any feel good about the derby win.

Aye.

The issues this raises for me are two fold:
1/ Taking it as read that Rafa will never be the one who is close to the players and hence should be building their confidence do we need someone beside him to do this? Last season this appeared to be Sammy Lee. Has his influence waned?
2/ Is the character of the players in the team right. I do think the balance in the group is wrong we have to many people who mistake action for taking the lead - Mascherano, Kuyt, Gerrard, Torres and to a lesser degree Carragher are all that type of example based leaders. We seem out of balance where before the calmer, carry on regardless types like Reina, Hyypia and Alonso seemed to bring a bit of yin to their yang in the personality mix of senior players.

[zimbo]

I think the biggest problem at the minute is a lack of leadership in the players. We have some leaders in Carragher, Mascherano and Gerrard but the problem is that they all lead by example and two of them are defensive players. Gerrard has been hampered by injury this season and it has reduced his utility as both player and captain.

Absolutely. We've always associated Liverpool players (and teams) with having character, typified by the existence of what became known as a Liverpool-type of player. I always understood that as shorthand for the possession of basic qualities like determination, grit, steel, will to win and a failure to admit defeat, no matter the odds. This season the number of players showing anything like that kind of resolve can be counted on the fingers of a Saudi Arabian shoplifter.

We haven't played great but at the same time we have not played as poorly as some make out and I do think there have been signs that parts of the team are coming together - the problem being that every time this looks like being the case more injuries come along or something like the weather disrupts us getting a run of games back to back where we gain momentum.

Just checked and since we beat Hull at Anfield, more than 3 months ago, by my reckoning we've played genuinely well for two and a half games (Man Utd, Lyon away and the first half v Arsenal). Other than that we've been anything ranging from sub-standard to thoroughly abject, taking in laughable, piss-poor and rank along the way. Bad luck does not alone explain such a dreadful run of form (though obviously it can intensify it).

I do however firmly believe that if we get 4th and retain Rafa as manager then the future is bright. The first team has more quality than it is showing and any team would struggle without it's two most potent threats in attack for large parts of the season. Obviously you could attack us as being a two man team but frankly you could say the same or worse for just about every team in the division.

But a team with Champions League (if not title-winning) aspirations should not be losing to the side at the botom of the table (Portsmouth) and a team struggling against relegation to the third tier (Reading), even without their best players. In fact, Gerrard and Torres played in the Portsmouth and Reading (first tie) games, but the woeful performances in each seem to suggest that the problems run a lot deeper. Although I don't for one second dispute the fact that without Torres and Gerrard we lack ideas, threat, penetration or quality.

[Vermilion]

Anyway, imo if Rafa does leave prematurely, watch him go on to be a great success with another club winning everything, and we'll be left as ever, with a manger under immense pressure from media and fans, struggling with a ****e transfer budget compared to the sides we're meant to challenge in europe and the Prem,

THEN!

Then we'll say, doesn't Hiddink look a broken man, time for him to go.

I suppose all i want is for Rafa to have a couple of seasons where the club is being run properly, having had investment, and he's given a decent budget to push on, like he should have had after last season.

[cream]

A poster on TIA claims for certain that Guus is being lined up as Rafa negotiates a pay off???

[Vermilion]

A poster on TIA claims for certain that Guus is being lined up as Rafa negotiates a pay off???

See, my prophesy of doom above is already coming true.