Enough ?

[red g]

until we sort out off the field on the field will always be a mess.

When we were dominant things were right on the pitch, when Scum werre dominant things were right off the pitch......same for Chelsea, same for city now.

the off field **** that goes on is a disease through the club and its bound to spread to the team and manager through a variety of ways.

I feel sorry for Rafa that instead of getting a proper chance and if he had the proper chance ie bought the likes of Alves and Simao and others when he could we would be sutting pretty near the top of the league.

Its sad that in todays 'now' society we have to sack a manager to galvanise a squad to get that 4th place as thats all that matters. IF 4th wasnt that important i would have every faith in Rafa sorting it out in the summer and getting us back on track. But money rules so we need to make a short term fix of new manager syndrome to get the holy grail of 4th, 4th ffs!!!!!

[Kenneth]

Some poster on TIA is a lying ****bag.

[dww]

Just checked and since we beat Hull at Anfield, more than 3 months ago, by my reckoning we've played genuinely well for two and a half games (Man Utd, Lyon away and the first half v Arsenal). Other than that we've been anything ranging from sub-standard to thoroughly abject, taking in laughable, piss-poor and rank along the way. Bad luck does not alone explain such a dreadful run of form (though obviously it can intensify it).

I don't think we have played well in many games wither. It's the "abject, taking in laughable, piss-poor and rank" that I'm less sure about. In the games I have seen we have generally got parts of our game working but lacked concentration at the back and cutting edge and/or confidence in the final third.

But a team with Champions League (if not title-winning) aspirations should not be losing to the side at the botom of the table (Portsmouth) and a team struggling against relegation to the third tier (Reading), even without their best players. In fact, Gerrard and Torres played in the Portsmouth and Reading (first tie) games, but the woeful performances in each seem to suggest that the problems run a lot deeper. Although I don't for one second dispute the fact that without Torres and Gerrard we lack ideas, threat, penetration or quality.

Firstly I take your point. Those results are/were not good enough in any way.

However I do think that there is some level of context At the time we lost to them (i.e. before they stopped getting paid again) Pompey had started playing pretty well and we had a man sent off. Manchester United have lost a number of games in the league this year too (even with good teams out) and I struggle to explain that also.

I think there are deeper problems - mostly that we play far too deep and that no one takes responsibility to make us play higher up the pitch and the fact that we can't attack a ball in our defensive penalty area for toffee. My feeling is that the latter is largely an organisational and confidence issue and that playing a settled back four for a number of games would see it improve markedly. The former is the one that may be a real issue.

It could be a problem originating from Rafa but in the past he has tended to have the team pressing all over the pitch in an effort to get higher so I have my doubts. Part of it is obviously the loss of Alonso and his ability to make balls out of deep areas. Part of it is that Lucas - Mascherano - Kuyt is a trio lacking in forward drive from deep. Overall though it seems a holistic issue that doesn't have a single source but is made of many minor things feeding back. I think it will be a similar set of minor changes that could rectify things, it will however require players to believe in themselves and what we are trying to do.

[zimbo]

Firstly I take your point. Those results are/were not good enough in any way.

However I do think that there is some level of context At the time we lost to them (i.e. before they stopped getting paid again) Pompey had started playing pretty well and we had a man sent off. Manchester United have lost a number of games in the league this year too (even with good teams out) and I struggle to explain that also.

I don't think any level of context can excuse such a dreadful performance (not that I necessarily think you are trying to excuse it, mind). Portsmouth's improvement in form is still only relative, and given they were (and remain) a bottom of the table side, and that we were already a goal down and struggling while Mascherano was still on the pitch, I'm not sure how much comfort we can take from this.

I think there are deeper problems - mostly that we play far too deep and that no one takes responsibility to make us play higher up the pitch and the fact that we can't attack a ball in our defensive penalty area for toffee. My feeling is that the latter is largely an organisational and confidence issue and that playing a settled back four for a number of games would see it improve markedly. The former is the one that may be a real issue.

It could be a problem originating from Rafa but in the past he has tended to have the team pressing all over the pitch in an effort to get higher so I have my doubts. Part of it is obviously the loss of Alonso and his ability to make balls out of deep areas. Part of it is that Lucas - Mascherano - Kuyt is a trio lacking in forward drive from deep. Overall though it seems a holistic issue that doesn't have a single source but is made of many minor things feeding back. I think it will be a similar set of minor changes that could rectify things, it will however require players to believe in themselves and what we are trying to do.

As you intimate we played deep last season too, but Alonso's ability to quickly switch the direction of our play, and the addition of genuine width in Riera, made this a less significant weakness.

This season, whilst missing both traits, we have also seen some dreadful individual defensive performances, no matter seemingly who is on the pitch. Now obviously this may partly be down to a lack of confidence brought about by the lack of a settled back four, as well as the full backs being unable to strike up an effective partnership with whoever has been picked to play in front of them.

But I think what was most obvious on Wednesday was the lack of any defensive protection from the midfield. Neither Lucas nor Aquilani seemed capable of taking up the necessary positions to stop Reading building swift attacks (particularly in the Reading half of the field). They also struggled to pick up runners from deep joining the attack once the ball had gone out wide. Added to the existing uncertainty in the back-line, it meant that we looked more vulnerable than I think I've seen us since the back-end of Evans' reign.

The best performances under Benitez have always come when we've adopted a high tempo from the first whistle and, as you say, pressed high up the field (something Sissoko, at least in his first season and a half, was very effective at). Juventus first leg, Madrid at home, the FA Cup semi v Chelsea, home games last season and this against Man Utd spring immediately to mind. Even the first half against Arsenal this season, which was possibly the best I've seen us this term. Until we can get back to this sort of approach, and I think the return of Mascherano cannot come soon enough in this respect, I fear we will continue playing the same pedestrian, unproductive, frustrating football that has defined most of the season so far.

[Guest]

Rafa's system is all about pressing high up the pitch and conquering the opposition's half. We epitomised this to perfection against Real Madrid last year. Playing deep was never Rafa's style of play, that was Houllier's.

The players have lost all the confidence to apply that sort of approach.

[the rev leeroy brown]

[/B]

I would rather we were winning some silverware instead of money! It makes me sick when I hear people accepting 4th as some sort of prize!! We have finished in the top four a number of times and only once came away with a trophy. **** the greed, what about some glory!

it's not all about silverware any more. i'd rather have the top 4 and all the glory that came with it ( plus the money that would enable us to strive for a league championship ) than settle for the carling / fa cup such as teams like everton, pompey, stoke etc.... winning one of these diddy cups doesnt bring real glory. only the league or CL does that IMO.

[Craig_H]

[/B]

I would rather we were winning some silverware instead of money! It makes me sick when I hear people accepting 4th as some sort of prize!! We have finished in the top four a number of times and only once came away with a trophy. **** the greed, what about some glory!

Without CL money, we have no future as a top/competitive club.

No hope of being able to mount any title challenges, no hope of being one of europe's elite anymore.

CL money is critical.

[BobTheCharmer]

it's not all about silverware any more. i'd rather have the top 4 and all the glory that came with it ( plus the money that would enable us to strive for a league championship ) than settle for the carling / fa cup such as teams like everton, pompey, stoke etc.... winning one of these diddy cups doesnt bring real glory. only the league or CL does that IMO.

thats whats wrong in todays game. what glory comes with top 4? define glory.

[dww]

As you intimate we played deep last season too, but Alonso's ability to quickly switch the direction of our play, and the addition of genuine width in Riera, made this a less significant weakness.

I think this is the key thing though - I'm not sure we did play deep even though we often set up looking like that. We started deep but we played a lot of football in the opposition half and also transitions from defensive to attacking positions no matter how deep quickly. Last season all our players were at least 10 yards higher up the pitch most of the game if you ask me.

This season, whilst missing both traits, we have also seen some dreadful individual defensive performances, no matter seemingly who is on the pitch. Now obviously this may partly be down to a lack of confidence brought about by the lack of a settled back four, as well as the full backs being unable to strike up an effective partnership with whoever has been picked to play in front of them.

The lack of width has been a killer. I think part of the problem has been that the midfielders seem to expect most width to come from the full backs and this becomes really predictable as well as meaning that there is more space behind us defensively. The relationships thing again I agree is very important.

But I think what was most obvious on Wednesday was the lack of any defensive protection from the midfield. Neither Lucas nor Aquilani seemed capable of taking up the necessary positions to stop Reading building swift attacks (particularly in the Reading half of the field). They also struggled to pick up runners from deep joining the attack once the ball had gone out wide. Added to the existing uncertainty in the back-line, it meant that we looked more vulnerable than I think I've seen us since the back-end of Evans' reign.

To my mind the problem is this: We play too deep so to track the opposition when they start deep attacks mean that defensively speaking the CMs want to be high up the pitch but are far away and hence have a lot of ground to cover. Our fullbacks push up a lot so they often also have to think of covering there - they have too much ground to cover and there isn't a strong enough organiser (even including Mascherano). The end result is that we are always being reactive as opposed to imposing ourselves on the game.

The best performances under Benitez have always come when we've adopted a high tempo from the first whistle and, as you say, pressed high up the field (something Sissoko, at least in his first season and a half, was very effective at). Juventus first leg, Madrid at home, the FA Cup semi v Chelsea, home games last season and this against Man Utd spring immediately to mind. Even the first half against Arsenal this season, which was possibly the best I've seen us this term. Until we can get back to this sort of approach, and I think the return of Mascherano cannot come soon enough in this respect, I fear we will continue playing the same pedestrian, unproductive, frustrating football that has defined most of the season so far.

I'm hopeful that if we go back to basics and just try and asked our fullbacks to stay a bit deeper and start from a solid defensive base we would see some other parts of the team get back to having some semblance of order.

I agree that we do need to see a higher tempo but part of that I think comes from playing the game in the right areas - which allows players to take risks in terms of losing the ball without risking gifting the opposition possession in a dangerous area. It is one of those seeming paradoxes that when you drop deep to be defensive you often simply put the opposition in better positions when your moves break down.

[Maxiedge]

It's some good points being brought up about our pressing. I remember a performance against Everton in 2005/6 season. It was away and we won 3-1 I believe. Gerrard scored a freekick that went under the wall.

For me, that was the perfect football performance. I was in awe with the way we gave Everton absolutely no room to breath and once we got the ball back we were clinical in our passing and looked dangerous in the final third. This was the team:
Reina, Finnan, Carragher, Hyypia, Warnock, Gerrard (Luis Garcia 85), Sissoko, Alonso, Kewell (Riise 80), Crouch (Morientes 77), Cisse.

Anyways, my point is that I remember at the time thinking how brilliant Benitez has got us playing and how the system he had integrated would be unplayable. So much energy and tempo...I felt sorry for the opposition. It wasnt just that one game either. It was over the entire season but that game really sprung to mind as Everton are usually the more dogged side but this time it was us and we had the the skill and flair to go with it too. It's hard to believe it's come to this now. We seem to have completely changed our game. It's a confidence issue as you tend to back off the opponents and play it safe when confidence is low.

However, how long are we going to be stricken with a lack of confidence? If Rafa hasn't managed to turn this around yet, will he ever do?

I still believe there is a glimmer of hope that we can return and even improve on Everton away 05/06 and may God have mercy on the rest of football if we ever do.

[Pablo]

That really is grasping at straws mate. The weather. I mean ffs.

This is just the type of throw-away comment that the media latch onto and uses to hang you on. If Rafa had came out with this in a press conference the headlines in the rags the next morning would read something like "Rafa Blames Snow For Poor Show"

[BillobShaisley]

reina, gerrard, torres, maybe carra,

The rest are ****e

Babel = ****e
Kuyt = ****e
Ngog = ****e
Lucas= ****e
Insua = ****e
Skrtel = ****e
Mascher = ****e


Big clear out required - and radio rafa can **** off too

You sir are talking bollox.

Gerrard - Worse than ****e, needs his head read and exclusion from anfield till he sorts out whatever his malfunction is.
Carra - ****e
Torres - Injured
Babel - ****e (Needs consecutive games in a settled team - Showed signs of improvement)
Kuyt - Decent but knackered
Ngog - Saving our arse
Lucas - Player of the season so far
Insua - A bit slow, learning to adapt
Skrtel - Rusty
Masher - Emerging from Barcelona daze

[BillobShaisley]

I think Rafa's biggest problem lies with the second/third rate players he has bought. He may be tactically brilliant but the guy couldnt spot a talented player if he kicked the ball in his face!!....

And you're full of it too

[Guest]

If the players don't believe in Rafa's methods anymore then I think that's it, there's not going to be a way back. The question should be to ask ourselves why has it become that way? Surely there are questions to ponder on.

Houllier's team, whilst not the best, still (for the most part, won the CL with Rafa in charge. Was there the same element of player power back then? Gerrard was in no man's land seemingly, as he wanted off.

All of this makes me highly suspicious of someone else coming in, as I don't think anything will change in the long run. Maybe a change of style will benefit in the short term, but in the long run, this will decay into the same mediocrity. Players have the responsibility to apply the manager's methods on the pitch and their inability to do that at the moment surely must lay the blame to their feet solely.

[Maxiedge]

Oh dear Lucas player of the season. I'm not arguing with you about that but it says it all for me. He hasn't scored or threatened the goal once.