Lucas

[Guest]

Thanks.

Thought the discussion warranted something like this.

[Neil Young]

Thought the discussion warranted something like this.

I'm sure both sides will be happy you've cleared up the matter.

When are you planning to sort out the Arab/Israeli problem? You know, the Arabs are right about this, the Israelis are right about that, etc.

[Guest]

When are you planning to sort out the Arab/Israeli problem?

I've got no such ambitions.

[Redspin]

Stats are really the worst type of evidence, as they only give you a part of the truth. It's no coincidence that there is 4 defensive players on the top list of passes, as they are the ones doing the most simple passes normally. Fabregas is the exception, and I think those stats say more about him than the other 4 players.

Lucas is a decent player, but he can't fill the role everybody expects him to (myself included I guess), and that's alonso's passing and vision going forward. There is no doubt in my mind that lucas and mascher together in our midfield has been a weight on our attacking play this season.

Aquilani needs more time, and Rafa don't seem to like the idea of getting Gerrard a run in CM. So for now we have to live with us playing two midfielders that are essentially both anchor-men, with Lucas slightly more forward going.

At least stats have a basis in fact, unlike individuals' prejudices. Alonso's "passing and vision going forward" is a great example. He provided just 3 assists out of 77 league goals last season, so were his passing and vision not very accurate?

[Neil Young]

I've got no such ambitions.

Pity.

[Scratch]

Lucas has a better passing game than Mascherano. He isn't at Mascher's levels as a defensive midfielder though.

How so...he's made more successful tackles, but at a lower percentage than Mascher...which implies he is actually making a lot more tackles overall (do the maths). Like Mascher, they both work all over the pitch, and have great match engines, however unlike Mascher, Lucas' tackles are the little niggling ones which don't get the crowd going and often go unnoticed, whereas Mascher flies into the tackle, taking man and ball, and the crowd roar their approval so the impact gets noticed more. So why is he not at Mascher's level, what is it that Mascher is offering that is so great, that Lucas doesn't offer? It's all i'm asking.

[DeanoUK]

In a nutshell that's it for me too.

I don't doubt their passing stats etc are similar. But as defensive midfielders one seems to be in a league higher.

Mascha seems to be at the right place at the right time tackling and harassing a far lot more than Lucas. Mascha seems to come away with the ball far more often - far too often Lucas' tackles don't have their desired affect; with the opposition continuing to have possession and Lucas the wrong side of the ball.

Lucas' positioning in set plays is poor, and I've seen him give away quite a few fouls in bad positions.

Lucas' forward play, which is meant to be his saving grace, is relatively non existent and rarely comes off when he actually bothers to try.

I don't disagree that Lucas has improved this season, but not to the level that he's anywhere near the quality to be in a Liverpool side on a permanent basis.

Stats seem to say something different to my observations, but that just surprises me, it doesn't affect what I've seen game-in game-out.

[Guest]

Pity.

Didn't know you had such high hopes for me, good to hear though.

How so...he's made more successful tackles, but at a lower percentage than Mascher...which implies he is actually making a lot more tackles overall (do the maths). Like Mascher, they both work all over the pitch, and have great match engines, however unlike Mascher, Lucas' tackles are the little niggling ones which don't get the crowd going and often go unnoticed, whereas Mascher flies into the tackle, taking man and ball, and the crowd roar their approval so the impact gets noticed more. So why is he not at Mascher's level, what is it that Mascher is offering that is so great, that Lucas doesn't offer? It's all i'm asking.

Mascher is like a *cough*terrier*cough*.

[Scratch]

In a nutshell that's it for me too.

I don't doubt their passing stats etc are similar. But as defensive midfielders one seems to be in a league higher.

Mascha seems to be at the right place at the right time tackling and harassing a far lot more than Lucas. Mascha seems to come away with the ball far more often - far too often Lucas' tackles don't have their desired affect; with the opposition continuing to have possession and Lucas the wrong side of the ball.

Lucas' positioning in set plays is poor, and I've seen him give away quite a few fouls in bad positions.

Lucas' forward play, which is meant to be his saving grace, is relatively non existent and rarely comes off when he actually bothers to try.

I don't disagree that Lucas has improved this season, but not to the level that he's anywhere near the quality to be in a Liverpool side on a permanent basis.

Stats seem to say something different to my observations, but that just surprises me, it doesn't affect what I've seen game-in game-out.

But is this because we believe the commentators too much...for me, Lucas is very good in the tackle, and often wrongly penalised for tackles where he has cleanly won the ball.

And i would disagree with your opinion that Lucas doesn't win the tackle...the stats also would.

As for positioning, Mascher is prone to losing his man as well, ala Tevez for United, and giving away freekicks with rash challenges in the wrong areas...that's just the nature of a defensive midfielder and the whistle happy refs.

And i feel that Lucas' set play positioning is much better, both defensively and offensively...he wins a lot of headers, and really should do better with them, but then again so could Agger, Skrtel...all our defensive players bar the departed Sami.

Didn't know you had such high hopes for me, good to hear though.



Mascher is like a *cough*terrier*cough*.

Dennis Wise was also terrier like. As is Robbie Savage...doesn't make you a good player, just a damn irritating one for the opponent and the opposition fans.

[DeanoUK]

It has nothing to do with the commentators possible subliminal messages, it really is what I perceive. And I know from what people have suggested that the stats don't match up we've what I'm allegedly seeing.

I'll keep an eye on it further to see if my view should change - which I have no problem in doing! But I know right now I'd chose Mascha over Lucas, despite what the stats appear to suggest.

[Darkon]

At least stats have a basis in fact, unlike individuals' prejudices. Alonso's "passing and vision going forward" is a great example. He provided just 3 assists out of 77 league goals last season, so were his passing and vision not very accurate?

But see therein lies the problem with focusing on selected stats instead of the context, as your point with assists is a fine example of.

Alonso's role in our team can't be measured in assists, as it is the person with the last pass that gets it. Alonso had (still have) great vision and distribution ability for us and coupled with a passing ability that is surpassed by few, if any, he could set up attacks, redistribute the ball and keep an attacking flow running. That is essentially what a deep-lying playmaker does when he is best, but very few of them get any direct assists as the rarely venture in to the opponents half.

Not saying prejudice is any better, just saying that stats are thrown around as the truth and used to explain something they tell us very little about in reality - or even worse when people just say "they speak for themselves"...

I'd still hold that the earlier quoted stats say more about fabregas than any of the others.

[Scratch]

It has nothing to do with the commentators possible subliminal messages, it really is what I perceive. And I know from what people have suggested that the stats don't match up we've what I'm allegedly seeing.

I'll keep an eye on it further to see if my view should change - which I have no problem in doing! But I know right now I'd chose Mascha over Lucas, despite what the stats appear to suggest.

Like i said, i don't doubt Mascherano's ability, and am more than happy when i see him on the teamsheet. I just wanted to garner why people seem to doubt Lucas, and consider Mascherano a better player. I offered the opinion that it was cos Mascher psyches the crowd up with his 100% commitment to the challenge, but also perhaps because we sold Alonso, and people see Lucas as his replacement, whereas the reality is Aquilani is that player to replace him.

[DeanoUK]

Like i said, i don't doubt Mascherano's ability, and am more than happy when i see him on the teamsheet. I just wanted to garner why people seem to doubt Lucas, and consider Mascherano a better player. I offered the opinion that it was cos Mascher psyches the crowd up with his 100% commitment to the challenge, but also perhaps because we sold Alonso, and people see Lucas as his replacement, whereas the reality is Aquilani is that player to replace him.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I also believe mine, and others, attitude and perception of Lucas' is still tainted from the previous season. I definitely moan twice as loud when Lucas fluffs it - albeit it does feel a lot more than some others in the team (and less than some others *cough* Kuyt *cough)

[Scratch]

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I also believe mine, and others, attitude and perception of Lucas' is still tainted from the previous season. I definitely moan twice as loud when Lucas fluffs it - albeit it does feel a lot more than some others in the team (and less than some others *cough* Kuyt *cough)

Fair play.

[Darkon]

Like i said, i don't doubt Mascherano's ability, and am more than happy when i see him on the teamsheet. I just wanted to garner why people seem to doubt Lucas, and consider Mascherano a better player. I offered the opinion that it was cos Mascher psyches the crowd up with his 100% commitment to the challenge, but also perhaps because we sold Alonso, and people see Lucas as his replacement, whereas the reality is Aquilani is that player to replace him.

That is definitely one of the major issues with the disliking of Lucas, that he is seen as the replacement of Alonso in the team, and for obvious reasons when our team formation is the same as last season, lineup the same with the only exception Lucas on the sheet instead of Alonso.

Lucas can't provide what Alonso did, and that pretty much leaves him unpopular when looking at the team sheet compared to last season. Of course Aquilani was brought in as Alonso's direct replacement, but when he is out of the team, as he has been for most of the season, it is only fair to ask who is supposed to take over the playmaking role?

It is a good question whether Rafa sees Lucas as that person, considering he insists on using the same formation, or if he is simply trying other things that don't work while having two anchor men cleaning up.

It's not quite fair on Lucas being judged on something he is not, but at the same time I can understand the disappointment of seeing him in the team, as we have very little creatively going forward from midfield. I can't help but wonder what would have happened if the Lucas-Mascher situation had been the other way around, with Lucas the established DM and then Mascher playing along side him after Alonso went to real. Would he have been just as unpopular?