Lucas

[Craig_H]

06-07 season he made 33 league appearances and they won the league

07-08 season he made 31 league appearances and 12 in Europe they won both that season.

08-09 season he made 28 appearances and they won the league


Must have had a bit of an impact then, eh?

You're obviously right.

When asked which players have been most crucial in Man Utd's title winning success, i'm sure most people would ignore the Rooneys, Ronaldos, Vidics, Ferdinands and Van Der Sars of this world, and instantly pick out Michael Carrick.

[Craig_H]

Watch this.

http://www.totalvid.com/Soccer-Videos/Coaching-the-Italian-4-4-2/

Read this.

http://www.foscsoccer.com/pages/Forms/docs/7.doc

And this series.

http://www.footballitaliano.co.uk/article.aspx?id=100

And then grok "My role is to be a solution to other people",

and then maybe we'll have enough of a shared vocabulary to discuss because I don't know how to explain it using a sky sports frame of reference.

What's a 'Sky Sports frame of reference' ?

I guess you cant explain it then.

[Marky]

You're obviously right.

When asked which players have been most crucial in Man Utd's title winning success, i'm sure most people would ignore the Rooneys, Ronaldos, Vidics, Ferdinands and Van Der Sars of this world, and instantly pick out Michael Carrick.

Doing your usual of putting words into my mouth.

Who's disputing Rooney and Ronaldo etc impact for United in their recent successes???

You can't say Carrick's not played his part though. He's not great but in his first few seasons at United he influenced many a match for them which resulted in them winning 3 leagues on the bounce.

[Craig_H]

Doing your usual of putting words into my mouth.

Who's disputing Rooney and Ronaldo etc impact for United in their recent successes???

You can't say Carrick's not played his part though. He's not great but in his first few seasons at United he influenced many a match for them which resulted in them winning 3 leagues on the bounce.

I'm not saying he's not played his part, but 'his part' isnt really one which makes the significant difference between winning or losing games.

He's not the one who makes THE impact on their matches on a consistent basis.

[BrianF80]

What's a 'Sky Sports frame of reference' ?

I guess you cant explain it then.

If you can't work out that much, then don't bother.

[Craig_H]

If you can't work out that much, then don't bother.

Nice little get out, there.

"I know, but i'm not going to tell you"

You're like a woman, when a bloke asks her what's wrong and she keeps insisting it's nothing, when it obviously isnt

[BrianF80]

Nice little get out, there.

"I know, but i'm not going to tell you"

You're like a woman, when a bloke asks her what's wrong and she keeps insisting it's nothing, when it obviously isnt

Ping me when you grow up.

[Norbs]

For me, this 'Lucas has been our best player this season' mantra is akin to the argument that Pennant was the outstanding performer in the 2007 Final. It doesn't actually stand up to any detailed questioning.

Before anyone starts, I have no major beef with Lucas. He has a great attitude and the effort he puts in is an example to some of his more senior team-mates. However, he continues to have virtually no direct impact on our play (which is something I would expect to see from our best player) and I am yet to see him directly influence the course of a game in a positive manner. He lacks the presence or stature to command a game from the position he plays and his passing, though generally neat, rarely offers anything that could be construed as a threat to the opposition.

Though Mascherano has also largely failed to excel, he at least is capable of providing the team with a tempo and drive that lifts the other players, and is infinitely better at carrying the ball forward at pace than Lucas has yet shown.

I would like to see him come good, and to repay the faith that Benitez has placed in him. Unfortunately, although I would love to have my mind changed, nothing I've seen from him indicates that this is likely to happen anytime soon.

[dww]

You're obviously right.

When asked which players have been most crucial in Man Utd's title winning success, i'm sure most people would ignore the Rooneys, Ronaldos, Vidics, Ferdinands and Van Der Sars of this world, and instantly pick out Michael Carrick.

First season he went there he was key in helping the team transition to a new formation and style of play. While I'm not convinced he is a great player he was exactly the player they needed and he had an immediate and big impact on the team which has subsequently been much more successful.

[lickedlollipop]

For me, this 'Lucas has been our best player this season' mantra is akin to the argument that Pennant was the outstanding performer in the 2007 Final. It doesn't actually stand up to any detailed questioning.

Before anyone starts, I have no major beef with Lucas. He has a great attitude and the effort he puts in is an example to some of his more senior team-mates. However, he continues to have virtually no direct impact on our play (which is something I would expect to see from our best player) and I am yet to see him directly influence the course of a game in a positive manner. He lacks the presence or stature to command a game from the position he plays and his passing, though generally neat, rarely offers anything that could be construed as a threat to the opposition.

Though Mascherano has also largely failed to excel, he at least is capable of providing the team with a tempo and drive that lifts the other players, and is infinitely better at carrying the ball forward at pace than Lucas has yet shown.

I would like to see him come good, and to repay the faith that Benitez has placed in him. Unfortunately, although I would love to have my mind changed, nothing I've seen from him indicates that this is likely to happen anytime soon.

very good post mate

[Redspin]

Like i said, i don't doubt Mascherano's ability, and am more than happy when i see him on the teamsheet. I just wanted to garner why people seem to doubt Lucas, and consider Mascherano a better player. I offered the opinion that it was cos Mascher psyches the crowd up with his 100% commitment to the challenge, but also perhaps because we sold Alonso, and people see Lucas as his replacement, whereas the reality is Aquilani is that player to replace him.

I disagree. Alonso was an out and out defensive midfielder and rarely got within 40 yards of the opposition's goal. Aquilani is very much the opposite and is an attacking midfielder and so should provide us with what Alonso didn't - goals and incisive passes in the final third for others around him to score. He might be the replacement in that he's higher profile (and a much higher fee) than Lucas, on paper anyway, but in terms of his role in the team he isn't a replacement for Alonso at all

[Redspin]

Would you ask me to explain why Cristiano Ronaldo's better than Dirk Kuyt? It's not a wildly different comparison and needs little or no explanation.

Every man and his dog, when answering honestly and without seeking to angle the debate in any specific direction, would concur that Mascherano is generally a considerably better overall player than Lucas.




Why is it 'prejudices' ? Why would anyone HAVE prejudices? That's surreal.

Maybe people just dont think Lucas is anything special.

Is that viewpoint not allowed?

I wouldn't dare suggest that someone with your moderate views, all-encompassing knowledge of the game and sense of fairness and proportion had any prejudices. Perish the thought. In fact I never form a view - probably because I might have prejudices - until I've heard you hold forth on the matter at hand

[BillobShaisley]

He does very little to make an impact on whether they win titles or not though.

In other words, United would win those titles, with or without him.

You're just talking bollox now.



The question was if Lucas was good enough to be part of a title challenging team not if he was the best player in a top team.

The argument is that you look at the top teams and they have top players but we forget they also have a few A N Others who do a job. Carrick being a case in point.

[Scratch]

You're just talking bollox now.



The question was if Lucas was good enough to be part of a title challenging team not if he was the best player in a top team.

The argument is that you look at the top teams and they have top players but we forget they also have a few A N Others who do a job. Carrick being a case in point.

Spot on...and Lucas' role is to get the ball from the back line, and distribute it, to break up play in the midfield, to harry and to chase...he is not a play maker, he will not make surging runs with the ball at his feet, but he will win the ball and pass the ball to a team mate, it's what he does well. Didi Hamann did it, Mascher does it, but because the boy from brazil does it, he's slated for it? Makes zero ****ing sense to me.

[red g]

Spot on...and Lucas' role is to get the ball from the back line, and distribute it, to break up play in the midfield, to harry and to chase...he is not a play maker, he will not make surging runs with the ball at his feet, but he will win the ball and pass the ball to a team mate, it's what he does well. Didi Hamann did it, Mascher does it, but because the boy from brazil does it, he's slated for it? Makes zero ****ing sense to me.

but didi and masher have or had so much more to there game!!
yr right though it is ALL lucas does and we need more imo.

Squad player yes, key player in a pivotal postion for a title challenging team- no