Arsenal v Liverpool post match thread

[Rich]

I thought tactically we were pretty much spot on, however in telling areas we have players that aren't good enough for one reason or another. Anyone expecting us to go to the Emirates and knock it about better than Arsenal is naive at best or just plain crazy.

Unfortunately the cracks in the first team and squad are glaring -

Skrtel - his distribution is woeful, easily worse than Carraghers. Put the big lad under pressure and the amount of times he shanks the ball instead of putting his foot through it is crap for an international. However as a positive he's tightened up his play in the past month or so.

Degen - waste of space. And the more I see us the more I don't think we need/want gung-ho fullbacks (so I'm tempted to lump Johnson in with this). First and foremost a right back should be an excellent defender, Degen isn't and I'm not sure Johnson is either. Which leads me to my next point...

"Quarterback"/Gerrard/Alonso - we might have been pushing the game but when Gerrard dropped back into CM we saw glimpses of what we so badly miss now Alonso has gone. The ability to pick a man out with a 40 yard pass, the calmness to take the ball and confidently take it forward. I'm a big fan of Mascherano and Lucas individually - Lucas continues to make big strides forward - but our play isn't progressive enough with both in the team. In my IMO we don't need gung-ho fullbacks with an Alonso-esque player sitting deep, the ability to pick a man out in space out weighs having bombing fullbacks. Worryingly from the little we've seen of Aquilani he isn't the one to play that position - perhaps drop Gerrard back, and use Aquilani further forward could be tried.

Wide attacking midfield - Kuyt can be incredibly effective, and I think Maxi is comfortable on the ball, with an eye for a creative pass however either of them as pacy, making our play more one dimensional, if one of our wide players was seriously pacy then it would give our play an added bit of pep.

Up top - Torres, Torres, Torres where are you?! We badly miss a top class striker, I like Ngog but he's still learning his trade.

[SimonNo7]

Maxi's a right-sided player and should be playing there. Of course he has Dirk in his way which is another debate.

I'm sure I'm alone here but I would play Kuyt upfront, not on the right. I'm most certainly not his biggest fan (I don't think he is good enough for LFC alongside a number of those playing at the moment) but I'm sure most of his goals are tap ins, bundle ins and follow ups and therefore he comes across as a poacher of sorts as he seems to be in the right place at the right time for his type of goal.

This would allow Maxi to play on the right giving us proper width and possibly stopping Degen going completely gung-ho.

Now whether he plays upfront with Ngog in a 4-4-2, well that is another question.

[The Birdman]

Right, the goal is clearly Degan's fault, I said as soon as Carra went off we would lose the game because he can't defend, you mark the space in front of you not take 2 steps away from the delivery like he did.
How people can have a pop at Insua is amazing and just plain lazy, he was composed and clearly benefits from having Riera or Maxi in front of him so he has someone to pass to rather than Bennayoun who buggers off all the time.
I understand people are frustrated because we lost but jesus Chelsea only had 2 or 3 attempts at home against them on Sunday and won, it wasn't as if Arsenal were rubbish.
We got done over by another weak referee with the handball at the end, we didn't do enough to win the game but I thought a draw was a fair result.
It's vital we don't lose at Man City but they are hardly setting the world on fire with their form

[the rev leeroy brown]

How people can have a pop at Insua is amazing and just plain lazy, he was composed and clearly benefits from having Riera or Maxi in front of him so he has someone to pass to rather than Bennayoun who buggers off all the time.

we have a pop at him becasue he is so plainly obviously not good enough. his passes are erratic at best no matter who he passes to. he very varely delivers a decent cross and has no pace what-so-ever. 3 times he was outpaced last night in a striaght race and with a couple yards head start. it's not lazy to have a pop....its just the truth. granted he looks better having a more left sided player ahead of him but he still cant cut it.

[The Birdman]

we have a pop at him becasue he is so plainly obviously not good enough. his passes are erratic at best no matter who he passes to. he very varely delivers a decent cross and has no pace what-so-ever. 3 times he was outpaced last night in a striaght race and with a couple yards head start. it's not lazy to have a pop....its just the truth. granted he looks better having a more left sided player ahead of him but he still cant cut it.

My point is he is 20/21 years old, a 50/50 bet to go to the world cup and if he were British you and everyone else who criticise him mostly every game would be wanking all over him, just like if Lucas was British he wouldn't have got half the stick he did/does.
It's no accident he has played a lot of games this season, he has seen off Dosenna and Aurelio, Rafa could have played Agger or Carra at left back at times but he hasn't.
I'm not disputing there was a spell earlier in the season when he was struggling but he's come through that now.

Are you one who moans about our youth and reserve system not producing anyone then also picks on the young players we do promote??
The facts are this season we have had the 2nd youngest team (average age) in the premiership behind Arsenal (it was either on Sky or was an opta stats thing in one of the broadsheets)

Having a pop at Insua and Lucas everytime we lose a game is lazy, mis- informed and frankly boring.

Watch any game of football and every single player on that pitch will at some point be outpaced by their opponent, Gerrard went round and then outpaced Clichy so that makes him slow does it?

Edit - Having re read your post again to say he isn't technically good so can't pass and can't cross is pathetic. If you're going to try and make an arguement or put across your point of view make it a valid one.

[The Birdman]

I'm sure I'm alone here but I would play Kuyt upfront, not on the right. I'm most certainly not his biggest fan (I don't think he is good enough for LFC alongside a number of those playing at the moment) but I'm sure most of his goals are tap ins, bundle ins and follow ups and therefore he comes across as a poacher of sorts as he seems to be in the right place at the right time for his type of goal.

This would allow Maxi to play on the right giving us proper width and possibly stopping Degen going completely gung-ho.

Now whether he plays upfront with Ngog in a 4-4-2, well that is another question.

It's down to squad strength I think, I agree that away to Arsenal we needed someone who is stronger and more experienced that Ngog up front but we also needed Kuyt wide to try and exploit Clichy when Arsenal were defending but also to protect Carra and track Clichy's forward runs.
I suppose Rafa could have played Riera left, Maxi right and Kuyt up top but he stuck with the same team that has done so well for the previous 6 or so games(mostly)

[the rev leeroy brown]

My point is he is 20/21 years old, a 50/50 bet to go to the world cup and if he were British you and everyone else who criticise him mostly every game would be wanking all over him, just like if Lucas was British he wouldn't have got half the stick he did/does.

even if hew were british i wouldnt give a ****. while he is our player i will suppport him but i'm not blind toi the fact he is not good enough and has shown me nothing this year to show he is improving at a quick enough level.

It's no accident he has played a lot of games this season, he has seen off Dosenna and Aurelio, Rafa could have played Agger or Carra at left back at times but he hasn't.
I'm not disputing there was a spell earlier in the season when he was struggling but he's come through that now.

Are you one who moans about our youth and reserve system not producing anyone then also picks on the young players we do promote??
The facts are this season we have had the 2nd youngest team (average age) in the premiership behind Arsenal (it was either on Sky or was an opta stats thing in one of the broadsheets)

i actually beleive our youth system is head and shoulders above every other team in the uk bar arsenal and hibernian. we have some cracking young talent coming through and hopefully one or two will make the jump to the senior side.

Having a pop at Insua and Lucas everytime we lose a game is lazy, mis- informed and frankly boring.

i havent slated lucas for a long time and if you'd read my post you'd see i've eaten humble pie and admitted lucas has converted me to a fan. i will happily do the same for insua should he make it but as it stands i cant see it.

Watch any game of football and every single player on that pitch will at some point be outpaced by their opponent, Gerrard went round and then outpaced Clichy so that makes him slow does it?

no but insua gets done almost every week with a head start on most players and resorts to tugging shirts and commitiing fouls due to his lack of pace.

Edit - Having re read your post again to say he isn't technically good so can't pass and can't cross is pathetic. If you're going to try and make an arguement or put across your point of view make it a valid one.

its not pathetic to point out insua's weaknesses. it;s stating my opinion. i havent seen him play more than one or two compfortable passes during a game. IMO he passes to players in no opsition to receive a pass and his crosses again IMO have been () althouygh better than stevie's corners ) pretty poor. these are valid points that i beleive.

[Redspin]

they were poor? their movement and touch is great. they just lack a drogba, rooney or torres to finish off their play.

Yes they were poor. Even Sky pointed out after a quarter of the game had gone that Reina had yet to touch the ball.

They created a couple of half chances at best in the second half, their passing wasn't as good as ours, their goalkeeper made the only save worthy of the name in the match and we had a nailed on penalty denied. They scored with one breakaway - poor defending in our six-yard box. Only our lack of a cutting edge up front prevented us from taking the game.

They were in no way better than us last night and if they think they're potential champions based on how little they produced last night and how predictable they were then they're deluding themselves

[Redspin]

Bloody hectic, some fans just wont give new players any time to fit into the squad.

They come on forums like this to fine tune their arguments before going on 6-0-6

[the rev leeroy brown]

Thing with Maxi is that he has just joined and what is it his second full game? Also he has come from Madrid where he hardly played so is off the pace and will need some time to get his form back. He should not be slated after only 3 or 4 games.

besides i saw enough of maxi last night to think to myself "we may have the bargain oif the january window here" yes he's rusty but he'll get better with time and games.

[Roboklopp]

I havent seen it on TV and MOTD left it out of their highlights, but i see no reason why Gerrard, when marauding through towards goal, would just tumble, unless he was bundled over.

Regarding the 'toothless' in attack thing, both sides were keen to make sure they didnt lose and i dont think they created a hatful themselves, but as the home side and the more creative personnel, they were always going to have more chances than us.

I thought we were always in the game and controlled spells of it, but lacked the cutting edge in the final third, which is gonna happen with a rookie kid leading the line on his own.

We didnt create a barrage of chances, but we had our striker go through on goal and we had a couple of other half chances, as well as being very unlucky with a great effort being tipped onto the bar.

We werent ****, by any stretch of the imagination.

A sensible, well balanced & accurate summary. What's got into you???

[Redspin]

That was depressing. Our away record is dreadful and I just don't see us even scoring away from home. Can anyone remember the last proper goal away? None tonight, none at Wolves, scramble from a set piece at Stoke...? We're barely even a threat.

At home I fancy us against anyone but it's our away form that'll cost us.

Having said that we're without Torres, Benayoun and Johnson, who all make a massive difference going forward. The latter two never get a mention from the pundits, it's only ever Torres, and the post-match tonight on Sky was borderline disgraceful - especially that cunt Keys.

He was truly shocking, as was the whole analysis. Keys said yet again that all Liverpool ever do is try to stop other teams playing. So it's not that Arsenal were utter ****e and extremely lucky to steal a goal their play didn't merit, but it was Liverpool's fault it was a poor game. They had failed to read the script and stand back and admire Arsenal and let them score a few goals.

OK we haven't been brilliant this season but Keys said precisely the same thing last season when we were beating Chelsea and Man Utd home and away and outscoring everyone else. He said we were always trying to stop those teams playing even then. The ****'s definitely got an agenda

[sssiho]

We were robbed of a point last night, did not deserve to win but also did not deserve a loss. If Webb is one of our best referess then there is no hope for football. He missed a blatant handball, that **** Arshavin stamping on Lucas(fair play to Lucas he did not make anything of it) and booked Maxi for a challenge on Eboue that looked bad but when they slowed it down on TV it was difficult to see he actually touched him. He got the Bender decision correct though.
We must beat City now, nothing else will do.

[Redspin]

some of our passing was laughable, for a top 4 side we should expect our players to be able to pass the ball forward constructively manner and at least try and play some sort of football.

we surrendered posession constantly and whenever we did get it it was just rubbish ****e.

ive give my left nut for fabregas in midfield with mascherano but knowing how creative players are treated at liverpool he would still be behind lucas (who actually played really well today in a defensive sense)

Fabregas was crap last night. His most telling contribution was getting away with a handball. He showed zero creativity and I can't remember seeing him play so badly before

[Redspin]

erm, he trod on his defender's foot, and fell over.

plus he didn't have control of the ball.

A pedant writes: despite the fact that TV pundits often use the fact that a player "didn't have control of the ball" as a reason why a penalty wasn't given, this is in fact nonsense. If an offence of tripping or attempting to trip or whatever takes place in the penalty area - it will be a penalty "irrespective of where the ball is on the field of play". Only the player fouled has to be in the box. The direction he's running or whether he has control of the ball or where the ball is are totally irrelevant in the law governing penalty kicks. Hence, when a team breaks out of defence, if an opposition player is still in their box and someone decides to kick him, push him, trip him or anything similar, it should be a penalty, even if play has moved a long way down the pitch, even to the other penalty area and the ball could be 90 yards from the fouled player.

Andy Gray particularly likes to spout the nonsense about a player not having control of the ball as a good reason not to give a penalty, which kind of sums him up