Does Rafa deserve one last throw of the dice?

[einar]

I'm sorry but when the results and the quality of football are pure ****, it's not remotely off the mark.

Do what you like rafa, use whatever methods you want and pick whatever players you want. Total control, as you wanted.

But if it fails, you're the one who carries the can.

Well you are right about the results at the moment are not good. And I am not saying that Rafa is not responsible.

What is important IMO is that people know how Rafa works. And he is just not someone like Jose who wants the players to group around him and therefore want to do well for him. He wants them to do it on their own, because that is what they want, so they can find that pride and confidence within them selves.

And what that means is that the players are far more vulnerable to outside influences that can affect their confidence and performance. And I think that, among other things is what is happening this season.

And to be fair, I don´t think Rafa has all the power. I think it is very clear that certain players have a bit of the power at our beloved club.

[Craig_H]

Your right lets disregard all of the other factors.

Rafa cannot motivate Steven Gerrard the captain of Liverpool Football Club to play decent football, he must go, obviously its the managers fault how can a local lad 29 years of age, captain of one of the biggest clubs in Europe be expected to motivate himself.

Its a wonder he can get himself out of bed in the mornings all by himself to be honest.

Other factors arent disregarded, but they dont win you trophies either.

It's a results business and our results, compared to what we have at our disposal, have been a disgrace. They havent been bad, they have been a disgrace.

The manager takes overall responsibility. You sound like fredo.

So motivation isnt rafa's responsibility. It's not his fault.

Poor signings, not his fault. Woeful style of play, not his fault. Bad decisions, not his fault. Picking the wrong players, not his fault. Rigidly never making a change before 60 minutes, even when we're screaming out for a change - not his fault.

Nothing's his fault. It's the length of the grass, the brightness of the floodlights, the noisy fans, the wrong shade of white on the matchball.

[Exiled_red]

I don't think we've had just a few injuries, we've had alot of injuries this season: Gerrard, Torres, Johnson, Aquilani, Agger, Riera have all missed large parts of the season, all of whom would have almost certainly have been considered first choice at the start of the season. Add to that Aurelio, Benayoun and Skrtel who would have featured heavily and would stepped in for some of the injured players who have also been out. That's going to have a huge effect on the squad, and performances.

Yes alot of them are back now but a number are clearly not fit.

[Craig_H]

Well you are right about the results at the moment are not good. And I am not saying that Rafa is not responsible.

What is important IMO is that people know how Rafa works. And he is just not someone like Jose who wants the players to group around him and therefore want to do well for him. He wants them to do it on their own, because that is what they want, so they can find that pride and confidence within them selves.

And what that means is that the players are far more vulnerable to outside influences that can affect their confidence and performance. And I think that, among other things is what is happening this season.

And to be fair, I don´t think Rafa has all the power. I think it is very clear that certain players have a bit of the power at our beloved club.

As i said before, he can do it his own way of course, but by the same token, he has to be accountable for whether it works or not. And it's not.

[einar]

As i said before, he can do it his own way of course, but by the same token, he has to be accountable for whether it works or not. And it's not.

Well I was just trying to start a discussion about ways of motivating. And you have made your point about wanting him out. I think is has worked more often then not but you disagree, I assume.

I find it very easy to see that what we have here is a world class manager in a very bad situation. I did not see that in Houllier and was very glad to see him go. But you seem to insist on taking the 6 seasons Rafa has had and look at them in isolation to come to the conclusion that last season was not the norm and therefore he is not as good as that season would suggest.

I however see his tenure as a work in progress and the fact that we have been better then the teams of Houllier every since Rafa took over tells me that last season was not the exception, but this season.

[Craig_H]

Well we're going to miss 4th place anyway thanks to this ****ing disgrace of a season, City will get it and buy plenty of class players, we'll lose Torres and never be in the CL again and will become the new everton, so whatever. Let's keep rafa and fight for 7th place every season. Great progress.

[SimonNo7]

It's causing me some real mental torture. I'm completely torn.

Based on results and performances he has to go..., and I sit here shaking my head as I type that.

...but the heart and Liverpool way says he should get another season, therefore I just don't know.

Perhaps I do think he should go but I just can't make myself say it

[BubbaZanetti]

BBC Gossip is reporting Alex Mcleish is in with a shot. Good grief no

I'm confident this link has been cooked up by his agent as he's angling for a new contract and accompanying pay rise

[einar]

Well we're going to miss 4th place anyway thanks to this ****ing disgrace of a season, City will get it and buy plenty of class players, we'll lose Torres and never be in the CL again and will become the new everton, so whatever. Let's keep rafa and fight for 7th place every season. Great progress.

Now you are letting your feelings do the talking.

I was also looking for a better response from you to my post.

[Craig_H]

I'm just bored of the same points and going round in circles.

Results are disgraceful, we all agree.

Some of you think it's ok, because of whatever reasons you have re owners, players etc etc. I think that despite other stuff, the manager takes the responsibility for the performance of the team. That's a simple enough rule in football, i cant believe anyone disputes it, but you do, so fair enough. I see no merit in continually going over it again and again.

If you think it's ok to keep him, then fine. I dont, given the results. If you think he will turn it around, great. I dont, i think it'll just continue or get worse.

You think what you think, i think what i think. The end.

[einar]

I'm just bored of the same points and going round in circles.

Results are disgraceful, we all agree.

Some of you think it's ok, because of whatever reasons you have re owners, players etc etc. I think that despite other stuff, the manager takes the responsibility for the performance of the team. That's a simple enough rule in football, i cant believe anyone disputes it, but you do, so fair enough. I see no merit in continually going over it again and again.

Well, with all due respect, I have not seen you answer this. Why do you dismiss the first seasons under Rafa as a period of building? Why is last season not the norm if he is given time and (some) resources?

And ruling out "other stuff" when assessing a managers performance is IMHO insane. It is like ruling out the fact that a player had to play barefoot when assessing his performance, when everyone else wore shoes.

[Craig_H]

Well, with all due respect, I have not seen you answer this. Why do you dismiss the first seasons under Rafa as a period of building? Why is last season not the norm if he is given time and (some) resources?

And ruling out "other stuff" when assessing a managers performance is IMHO insane. It is like ruling out the fact that a player had to play barefoot when assessing his performance, when everyone else wore shoes.

I dont dismiss it. He was building. Fine.

What he's built now, is either ****, or it's good, but he cant get the goodness out of it. So to speak.

Results dont lie, not 30 games into a season.

Your barefoot example is a weird one.

I'll say it once more...

Outside influences havent helped and the owners are cunts, but we have the 3rd or 4th best group of players in the league, and we look on course for 7th. That's the long and short of it. Even with the outside influences, our team is far better than what we are achieving. Far better. The fact that we're underachieving is down to poor utilisation of what we have. End of.

[Finnish_Red]

Of course, motivating players isnt the manager's business, is it?

Wasn't Sammy supposedly brought in partly because of this?

[Craig_H]

Of course mate. You're right. It's not in Rafa's job remit.

[Finnish_Red]

Did I say that?