Atletico post-match downer

[calvoboy]

We don't need big changes, we need some changes, but not a massive overhaul. What we need is some depth.

Funny - when you look at the squad now, and Houllier's squad, to me there's not really been much improvement. Our first 11 now certainly contains more top-class players, but also contains more glaring weaknesses. And the squad players are just as crap now as they were then.

I think we've got a spine of top class players, and what we need are simple, average, dependable, proven premiership players in the other positions. The kind of players that have been available for peanuts in recent years, or even on frees, and then turn up doing solid work at lesser clubs in the premiership while we struggle with Insua, El Zhar, N'Gog, Voronin etc.

I won't name names, because they are the sort of players who are clearly not the best in the league in their positions, and I'll be shot down in flames by those on here who still expect us to have players as good as Gerrard and Torres in every position. But titles are won by having reliable players who don't put a foot wrong to supplement the superstars who win you games. We've been relying too much on untried and untested players, or those that have been tried and tested and have turned out to be liabilities.

Obviously I hope we've got a load of money coming, and can go out and sign Silva for the left, Villa to complement Torres, and find a top class left-back who can actually defend (if such a mythical creature exists). But, if not, I can think of quite a few good premiership players who would have improved us in recent years, despite the howls of derision there would have been on here if we had signed them.

[5europeancups]

No excuses apart from the injuries but basking in recriminations is poor. There is no quick fix in football.

Sorry, but , you need to know what is wrong before you can fix something.

[Exiled_red]

Funny - when you look at the squad now, and Houllier's squad, to me there's not really been much improvement. Our first 11 now certainly contains more top-class players, but also contains more glaring weaknesses. And the squad players are just as crap now as they were then.

I think we are better player for player now than we were then, not just in first team terms but in terms of back up. Player like Lucas are better than Diao or Biscan. Insua is better than Traore etc. The one area we lack this in is striking options.

I think we've got a spine of top class players, and what we need are simple, average, dependable, proven premiership players in the other positions. The kind of players that have been available for peanuts in recent years, or even on frees, and then turn up doing solid work at lesser clubs in the premiership while we struggle with Insua, El Zhar, N'Gog, Voronin etc.

I won't name names, because they are the sort of players who are clearly not the best in the league in their positions, and I'll be shot down in flames by those on here who still expect us to have players as good as Gerrard and Torres in every position. But titles are won by having reliable players who don't put a foot wrong to supplement the superstars who win you games. We've been relying too much on untired and untested players, or those that have been tried and tested and have turned out to be liabilities.

Obviously I hope we've got a load of money coming, and can go out and sign Silva for the left, Villa to complement Torres, and find a top class left-back who can actually defend (if such a mythical creature exists). But, if not, I can think of quite a few good premiership players who would have improved us in recent years, despite the howls of derision there would have been on here if we had signed them.

Haven't we tried that with players like Pennant, Zenden, Bellamy, Ziege etc? All did well (or even very well) for previous premiership clubs but weren't good enough for us! Our success rate with players like this is fairly low.

[red g]

Funny - when you look at the squad now, and Houllier's squad, to me there's not really been much improvement. Our first 11 now certainly contains more top-class players, but also contains more glaring weaknesses. And the squad players are just as crap now as they were then.

I think we've got a spine of top class players, and what we need are simple, average, dependable, proven premiership players in the other positions. The kind of players that have been available for peanuts in recent years, or even on frees, and then turn up doing solid work at lesser clubs in the premiership while we struggle with Insua, El Zhar, N'Gog, Voronin etc.

I won't name names, because they are the sort of players who are clearly not the best in the league in their positions, and I'll be shot down in flames by those on here who still expect us to have players as good as Gerrard and Torres in every position. But titles are won by having reliable players who don't put a foot wrong to supplement the superstars who win you games. We've been relying too much on untried and untested players, or those that have been tried and tested and have turned out to be liabilities.

Obviously I hope we've got a load of money coming, and can go out and sign Silva for the left, Villa to complement Torres, and find a top class left-back who can actually defend (if such a mythical creature exists). But, if not, I can think of quite a few good premiership players who would have improved us in recent years, despite the howls of derision there would have been on here if we had signed them.

massively disagree, i think we have a miles better team and even squad now. I jsut dont think Rafa is getting the best out of them, i dont think our first 11 has any glaring weaknesses either.....ok we could be better in some positions admittedly.

We have a hugely better first 11
we have some good quality back up

We have a manager who isnt getting best out of the team and squad imo at this moment in time

[Maxiedge]

I think it'd be best for both parties if Kuyt wasn't here next season. We've seen him at his best, we've seen him at his worst and we've seen him somewhere in between but now it's time to turn the page on this particular chapter

It's like the relationship that's going nowhere. It's time to freshen things up.

[red g]

I think it'd be best for both parties if Kuyt wasn't here next season. We've seen him at his best, we've seen him at his worst and we've seen him somewhere in between but now it's time to turn the page on this particular chapter

It's like the relationship that's going nowhere. It's time to freshen things up.

sort of agree under any other manager i would want to keep him as he is a great squad player but under rafa i fear that he would carry on playing him next season to .

[calvoboy]

[quote=Exiled_red;1590180]I think we are better player for player now than we were then, not just in first team terms but in terms of back up. Player like Lucas are better than Diao or Biscan. Insua is better than Traore etc. The one area we lack this in is striking options.[QUOTE]

I used to think that - but when you look at the first 11 (admittedly it's difficult to compare because the tactics are different)

Dudek - Reina = Reina big improvement
Finnan - Johnson = no better, certainly defensively
Carra/Henchoz/Hyppia - Carra/Agger/Skrtel = No better
Riise - Insua = Riise was much more dependable than Insua
Kewell - Babel = A fit Kewell was much better than Babel
Gerrard/Didi - Lucas/Mascher = Mascher slight improvement on Didi? Lucas weaker than Gerrard.
Smicer - Kuyt = different sort of players, Kuyt probably edges it
Heskey/Owen - N'Gog/Torres = Torres just about edges it from Owen, even at Owen's best, but there's not much in it, and Heskey gave us more options (shame we tended to take the one option of hoofing it to him!)

Yes, Insua is better than Traore, but he's not as good as Riise or Carra who tended to play left-back. Yes, Lucas is better than Diao and Biscan, but he's not as good as Didi or Gerrard who tended to play centre mid. To me, looking at the two first 11s we are much weaker at left back, left wing, up front, and defensively at right back. Against that, we have marginally improved in midfield and up front, but still have no depth.

Haven't we tried that with players like Pennant, Zenden, Bellamy, Ziege etc? All did well (or even very well) for previous premiership clubs but weren't good enough for us! Our success rate with players like this is fairly low.

But that's sort of my point. Maybe we need to re-think what is good enough? You can't have world beaters in every position, and you need some solid but unspectacular types. Bellamy would be a huge improvement on N'Gog. I still say Pennant is\was better than El Zhar or Babel, though I know everyone hates him on here, and he certainly never looked top class for us. Even Zenden and Ziege you could trust to come on and do a job if necessary better than one or two of our current squad.

[Shaggy]

Heskey/Owen - Gerrard/Torres = Torres just about edges it from Owen, even at Owen's best, but there's not much in it, and Heskey gave us more options (shame we tended to take the one option of hoofing it to him!)

[calvoboy]

massively disagree, i think we have a miles better team and even squad now. I jsut dont think Rafa is getting the best out of them, i dont think our first 11 has any glaring weaknesses either.....ok we could be better in some positions admittedly.

We have a hugely better first 11
we have some good quality back up

We have a manager who isnt getting best out of the team and squad imo at this moment in time

I thought that too - until I looked at the first 11s. We undoubtedly have more world class players, but looking at the snapshot of both squads, they seem to have been improvements over players who were pretty damn good in the first place (mascher\didi, Torres\Owen). There's only Reina who I would say is by far and away better than the first choice player in Houllier's squad. Against that, we've got no decent left back when we had Riise/Carra under Houllier, we've still got no wide players, and we are undoubtedly weaker up front overall as we've got N'gog when we had Heskey and even Baros (who was nowhere near good enough, but better than N'Gog).

[calvoboy]

Which bit? I'm not talking about replacing them with the same players now - but when Owen first came through and was on his game he was a goalscoring machine. Torres is better, certainly.

Having to include Gerrard there because of the system changes is a bit unfair, as he can't play up front on his own when Torres is out. I'm clearly not saying that Heskey is better than Gerrard, just that at least he gave us a plan B. We are currently totally reliant on Torres up front. Will put N'Gog in for the sake of comparison, as I've already got Gerrard in midfield...

[Shaggy]

Well I think Torres more than edges it from Owen. I haven't forgotten what MO did for us but Torres is in a different class completely.

Heskey, options. Meh. He had one great season and ****ing nothing thereafter, and we certainly never utilised any options other than whacking up towards him and watching him fall over.

Our squad now is miles, miles better than it was. Miles better.

[Robbie-9-Fowler]

Degen and El Zhar on to chase a game.. sums us up really.

[Mostar]

I'm with PTP on this, Aquilani was ok, nothing more. Although it was an excellent finish.

Given how much he played this year (especially looking at number of starts and full games performances) imo he did really well.

[Mostar]

I think it'd be best for both parties if Kuyt wasn't here next season. We've seen him at his best, we've seen him at his worst and we've seen him somewhere in between but now it's time to turn the page on this particular chapter

It's like the relationship that's going nowhere. It's time to freshen things up.

Nobody works harder then Kuyt but he is not good enough to be in starting 11. We need pace and creativity and he unfortunately does not have it neither.

[The Birdman]

Babel at least looks like he tries during games now which is nice of him but then again he's got a world cup place to play for.

The ignore button was invented for The Rev and his fellow cronies