Pack your bags Roy

[little dave hedgehog]

The ting is der Dave, for some people on here the new owner caveat only came after the sacking. The Captain Hindsight argument is to convenient and it means people, who should be punished harshly for flipflopping, can say 'I know I spent the last yeah bellowing 'Sack Rafa' in capital letters and with exclaimation marks galore, but what I meant is only sack him if we've got new owners (or aren't going to appoint a 63 year old cretin). Even though I only started stating this part of my argument AFTER he was sacked surely everyone knew what I meant'.

Some people obviously find it easier to love Rafa when he's not here.

whilst i agree with you, how many people seriously thought when we sacked rafa off (not afterwards, but on that day) that liverpool fc club would seriously hire a manager this **** and be here, now. i certainly didn't, although i was pretty broken up about rafa going even though i could certainly, by that point in the season, see the logic in replacing him. i'm not sure that the "just so long as we don't do anything as daft as hiring someone far beneath us" caveat felt necessary at the time.

but the point of my original post, is that i was being deliberately thick in order to pointlessly goad craig. so i failed in that respect.

[Craig_H]

The ting is der Dave, for some people on here the new owner caveat only came after the sacking. The Captain Hindsight argument is to convenient and it means people, who should be punished harshly for flipflopping, can say 'I know I spent the last yeah bellowing 'Sack Rafa' in capital letters and with exclaimation marks galore, but what I meant is only sack him if we've got new owners (or aren't going to appoint a 63 year old cretin). Even though I only started stating this part of my argument AFTER he was sacked surely everyone knew what I meant'.

Some people obviously find it easier to love Rafa when he's not here.

WTF **** are you on about, 'punished harshly' What planet are you living on?

And pardon me for asking, but how do you know what people were thinking, with regards to the circumstances under which they thought rafa should leave?

Or are you seriously trying to say that people who felt rafa should go, were thinking "Yes, he should be sacked even if the replacement is a useless doddering tit with no levels of expectation, who will have us playing even ****ter and doing even worse" ? Laughable.

[Craig_H]

whilst i agree with you, how many people seriously thought when we sacked rafa off (not afterwards, but on that day) that liverpool fc club would seriously hire a manager this **** and be here, now. i certainly didn't, although i was pretty broken up about rafa going even though i could certainly, by that point in the season, see the logic in replacing him. i'm not sure that the "just so long as we don't do anything as daft as hiring someone far beneath us" caveat felt necessary at the time.

i remember the argument i and others gave being we need to make sure that we have someone good enough to replace him and the answer was that anyone could do better.

Like ****, it was.

[gerbin11]

What is even funnier, is how you still dont seem to have understood my point, all these months later...

When i was saying i thought rafa should go, it was ON THE BASIS THAT I FELT WE'D HAVE NEW OWNERS WHO COULD THEN ATTRACT A TOP CLASS REPLACEMENT.

Is that so hard to understand?

If i thought Hicks & Gillett were going to stay until mid October 2010, i most certainly wouldnt have seen any value in getting rid of rafa because it was clear that we wouldnt get a top manager in, while those two parasites owned the club.

It's really straightforward.

As for 7th not seeming so bad now - just because Roy is taking us to the pits of ****eness, that doesnt suddenly make 7th place good enough.

It seems like people of 'your ilk' are keen to only look at one aspect of what i am saying - i've already said i would happily take rafa back tomorrow. The difference is, i neither think he's the best thing in the world ever, nor do i think he's as bad as was made out. I'm a bit more in the middle and a little bit more balanced in my viewpoint of rafa, it's neither black nor white. Unlike some SEEM to be.

Firstly I would like to say that I did understand your point Craig. Unfortunately for you your point was made from a very deluded and naive position. Although we all prayed for the speedy removal of H&G looking at them realistically they were never going to go without a fight.

To suggest removing the manager before sorting out the ownership was always going to plunge the club into uncertainty. As I said at the time no 'world class' manager was ever going to take the plunge in those circumstances. You failed to grasp this basic theory and said that I was 'talking ****'.

One thing I would like to clear up is that, if you read my post, i do not think finishing 7th is 'not bad'. It is bad, it is a sad reflection of our clubs current position that finishing 7th seems unattainable this season, unless we replace the manager.

[Craig_H]

I'm not sure you really ARE getting it, gerbin. Because if you were, you'd understand that i never did suggest getting rid of the manager before sorting out the ownership. The whole basis of my suggestion to change the manager, WAS on the notion that we'd have new owners - new owners who could make the change and hopefully attract a replacement of sufficient quality.

As for 'very deluded and naive' - i thought/hoped the ownership issue would be sorted by July - it was sorted in October. So what's that, 12 weeks out? I'm not sure that makes the original 'prediction' or hope of July particularly 'deluded'.

And regarding the 7th place thing, i based my comment on this:

7th doesn't seem that low this season does it

[gerbin11]

'It's a simple choice, sack Rafa now, or forget any hope of being in the CL for the foreseeable future. We'd basically turn into a midtable club.'

Posted by yourself 09-03-10, 01:12 PM

No mention of when new owners come in there is there Craig

'7th doesn't seem that low this season does it' this is slightly out of context isn't it, with the added comments I added after and taken in context the sarcasm is more noticeable.

Ok sorry your not deluded or naive. It's just that I've seen how you refuse to admit your ever wrong and so wanted to give you an escape clause.

[Craig_H]

'It's a simple choice, sack Rafa now, or forget any hope of being in the CL for the foreseeable future. We'd basically turn into a midtable club.'

Posted by yourself 09-03-10, 01:12 PM

No mention of when new owners come in there is there Craig

'7th doesn't seem that low this season does it' this is slightly out of context isn't it, with the added comments I added after and taken in context the sarcasm is more noticeable.

Ok sorry your not deluded or naive. It's just that I've seen how you refuse to admit your ever wrong and so wanted to give you an escape clause.

But can you not see that in March 2010, it was one month before the old owners (then) finance agreement was due to expire and either be renewed, or them get ousted?

In March 2010, it seemed (to some, at least) that we were nearing endgame with the owners. Even Purslow (when discussing the issue of new owners/investment) had mentioned Easter as being a time by which he had hoped it might've/would've been sorted.

Whilst he obviously ****ed up that particular time-scale, that was what we were told and in the full remit of a 'benefit of the doubt' train of thought, i had accepted/hoped that it would indeed have come about.

[gerbin11]

Are you honestly saying you really believed that by Easter H&G would have been gone and that by sacking Rafa at that point would have been a good idea.

[Craig_H]

Easter was 'given' as the time it was 'hoped' it'd be sorted by, or at least START to be sorted by. Being realistic, i expected that it would've taken a bit longer to complete, and been done after the season had ended - and as i said, my 'prediction' (if you'd call it that) or certainly feeling, was that Hicks and Gillett would've finally been removed over the summer, most likely in July.

[gerbin11]

Fair enough if those were your hopes but that still doesn't explain asking for Rafa's head a month and a half before the end of the season.

[Craig_H]

The fact that we were doing so poorly, coupled with the belief that new owners were coming in soon (and therefore a serious prospect of a quality replacement manager) were the main factors.

I love the desire you have to try and 'get one over on me' or 'prove me wrong' - you're just itching to do it and it's amusing.

[gerbin11]

I;m not trying to get one over on you, I'm trying to discuss a point with you. It just that hypocrisy irritates me.

[CJ]

Craig why do you think people think you dont ever admit you were wrong?

is it a misunderstanding?
did you not articulate your point as well as you might have at the time?

[Craig_H]

I;m not trying to get one over on you, I'm trying to discuss a point with you. It just that hypocrisy irritates me.

What hypocrasy though? The 'hypocrasy' point is based on an opinion which you thought i had, and that (as i am currently explaining to you), wasnt as you thought it was.

Craig why do you think people think you dont ever admit you were wrong?

is it a misunderstanding?
did you not articulate your point as well as you might have at the time?

http://www.est1892.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=1785998&postcount=4387

Nice try.

While i'm at it, prior to signing Torres and while we were linked, i expressed on here that his goal record for Atletico Madrid wasnt as high as you'd hope and that, based on those stats in Madrid, if we were after a prolific goalscorer, Torres wasnt the right man. Clearly and emphatically, i got that very wrong and am happy to admit it (as i have done previously, too). Just one of many thing i'm sure i've got wrong in my time.

So what's next?

"Why have you only admitted you're wrong twice?"

[CJ]

nice try? again aggressive when there is no need.

also if thats as close as you ever have come to admitting your wrong i wonder why your so defensive?