Pack your bags Roy

[little dave hedgehog]

Arn will seriously scratch your eyes out, for that one

[DannyMan2006]

Doesnt a new manager usually actually signal an upturn of form?

ask rafa :P

Roy came to a team on it's knees. Rafa went to a team that was the best in Europe.

There should have been only one way both sides went, LFC upwards and Inter downwards. That said, Inters fall has been more dramatic than expected and LFC's rise never came.

[little dave hedgehog]

i admit to only writing that in the name of **** stirring. i'm done for now.

[calvoboy]

Doesnt a new manager usually actually signal an upturn of form?

Not the last couple of times we've tried it:

97/98 - Evans - 3rd, 65 points
98/99 - Houllier - 7th, 54 points

03/04 - Houllier - 4th, 60 points
04/05 - Rafa - 5th, 58 points

Houllier went on to win us a ton of trophies. Rafa went on to lead us to our closest title challenge for 20 years, and won a couple of trophies including the biggest of all. Despite **** first seasons.

The huge 'but' is that under Houllier in his first difficult season we could all see that he was instilling the disciplined approach that we all felt was lacking under Evans. Under Rafa in his first difficult season we could see that he was trying to build the Valencia 'crushing machine' that we'd all admired. Under Roy, it's just not clear what he's trying to build and he keeps talking bollocks.

[DannyMan2006]

Not the last couple of times we've tried it:

97/98 - Evans - 3rd, 65 points
98/99 - Houllier - 7th, 54 points

03/04 - Houllier - 4th, 60 points
04/05 - Rafa - 5th, 58 points

Houllier went on to win us a ton of trophies. Rafa went on to lead us to our closest title challenge for 20 years, and won a couple of trophies including the biggest of all.

Difference being.........

98/99 was not Houlliers first proper season in charge until the end. It started with the experiment of Roy and Ged and that was why the season was a write off.

04/05 was only two points worse off, with Rafa also having to contend with CL football unlike Houllier in 03/04. And of course we ended up going all the way to the final and winning it. So that obviously made the season more difficult.

[little dave hedgehog]

completely interesting to me that ged was sacked despite guiding us into the cl places. which wasn't normal for us as it has been in some other eras, so pretty decent by his own standards.

[calvoboy]

To be doing as well as last year or worse is unacceptable..

You reckon? Having had to sell Mascheran, and a load of squad players to desperately try and balance the books for Hicks and Gillett, replacing them with mid-table kind of signings, and having had the takeover saga coming to a head, complete with a fortnight of high court battles, backstabbing, and threats of administration and points deductions?

With a much weaker first team and squad, and with all that **** going off, I'd have been amazed if we'd seen a massive improvement. I did think we'd still be playing decent football though regardless of results.

[DannyMan2006]

You reckon? Having had to sell Mascheran, and a load of squad players to desperately try and balance the books for Hicks and Gillett, replacing them with mid-table kind of signings, and having had the takeover saga coming to a head, complete with a fortnight of high court battles, backstabbing, and threats of administration and points deductions?

With a much weaker first team and squad, and with all that **** going off, I'd have been amazed if we'd seen a massive improvement. I did think we'd still be playing decent football though regardless of results.

Mascherano was a loss. The other comings and goings were supposed to improve us in the eyes of Roy. And a manager lives and dies by the transfer market if he controls signings.

[calvoboy]

Difference being.........

98/99 was not Houlliers first proper season in charge until the end. It started with the experiment of Roy and Ged and that was why the season was a write off.

04/05 was only two points worse off, with Rafa also having to contend with CL football unlike Houllier in 03/04. And of course we ended up going all the way to the final and winning it. So that obviously made the season more difficult.

OK, the following season 99/00 we still finished 4th, a place worse than in Roy's last season, and Houllier had dealt with his changeover period by then, having had more than half of the season you won't count to get his ideas across.

For Rafa 04/05 was only two points worse off, but no-one, least of all our captain, was expecting us to win the CL the way we were playing around the time of the last 16 (as he memorably laughed in a post match interview and was rebuked by Rafa), and we're only two points worse off now compared to the same fixtures last season...

Both Houllier and Rafa had dips when they first took over, compared with the previous manager's results. They went on to much greater things. The question is whether this is a two point dip a la Rafa and Houllier, or a permanent decline.

[calvoboy]

Mascherano was a loss. The other comings and goings were supposed to improve us in the eyes of Roy. And a manager lives and dies by the transfer market if he controls signings.

Very harsh - what did you expect him to say? "well, they are a bit **** compared with what's going out, but that's what we are working with at the moment until the club is sold"?

[Craig_H]

Surely the point is, you cant point to the **** signings as an excuse, because they were Roy's signings and he chose to bring them here, thinking they would make us better.

[DannyMan2006]

OK, the following season 99/00 we still finished 4th, a place worse than in Roy's last season, and Houllier had dealt with his changeover period by then, having had more than half of the season you won't count to get his ideas across.

For Rafa 04/05 was only two points worse off, but no-one, least of all our captain, was expecting us to win the CL the way we were playing around the time of the last 16 (as he memorably laughed in a post match interview and was rebuked by Rafa), and we're only two points worse off now compared to the same fixtures last season...

Both Houllier and Rafa had dips when they first took over, compared with the previous manager's results. They went on to much greater things. The question is whether this is a two point dip a la Rafa and Houllier, or a permanent decline.

I think we'll have to disagree on some points as your mind seems made up.

-----------

But tbh you hit the nail on the head before in a previous post and I'll agree on that point. Under Ged and Rafa we were sold a vision of the future and we knew what direction we were going. Both came on the back of immense success (Houllier laying foundations for the French to win World Cup and later Euros, Rafa winning La Liga twice in three years as well as UEFA Cup).

Both had a solid history and were on an upward curve. Roy just does not inspire the fans. And I'm sorry to say, if the fans aren't inspired, it's not often that the players are.

[calvoboy]

Surely the point is, you cant point to the **** signings as an excuse, because they were Roy's signings and he chose to bring them here, thinking they would make us better.

No - they were Roy's signings and he chose to bring them here, thinking they were the best for the club given the money available. There's a big difference.

Replacing Mascher, the best defensive CM in the world, with anyone would have weakened the side. As would having to sell a load of squad players to desperately cut the wage bill, as Bascombe, Evans and other journalists said was going to happen in the summer long before Roy was appointed.

It's his fault that the players he's signed haven't been much cop, but not his fault that the overall quality of the squad has declined, any more than it was Rafa's when he had to make a profit for his last 3-4 transfer windows.

[DannyMan2006]

Surely the point is, you cant point to the **** signings as an excuse, because they were Roy's signings and he chose to bring them here, thinking they would make us better.

He also chose to let go Aquilani, Insua, Riera, Cavalieri, bringing in the likes of Poulsen, Konchesky, Jovanovic and Jones.

Cole replacing Yossi and Meireles replacing Masch. He also failed to sign a striker despite moaning all season that we are lacking one.

[DannyMan2006]

Calvo, what do you think would prove a good season for Roy?