Pack your bags Roy

[Neil Young]

I agree with the general tenor of the posts of Nige, Shaggy and Plod.

But I agree with Craig in one respect - I think Gerrard has done enough for the club over the years for us to tread carefully in how far we take our criticisms of him. I'm not saying he's above criticism but he's earned the benefit of whatever doubt there is.

[Craig_H]

I think he put in too many gutless non-performances last season, he'd stopped giving his all IMO.

He certainly isnt alone in that respect. And in terms of gutsy 'back from the brink' performances, SG has done more than enough to atone for last season's letdown performances. But as i say, it was basically the whole squad.

His gesture at Rafa at Birmingham last season

Same gesture was repeated by the vast majority of the fans in that stand, not to mention countless others around the country.

SG is human and at the time, it was a baffling, shocking & mighty frustrating decision. I'd be more shocked at people NOT reacting in the way Gerrard did, to be honest.

and other things such as his defeaning silence when Rafa was sacked and his haste to lick Hodgson's arse when he was appointed

Not sure what the point of coming out and backing Rafa after he was sacked, would've been. If Gerrard HAD indeed got fed up of Rafa, then that's his perogative. Again, it's not a crime to think the manager's run his course. This doesnt equate to 'forcing him out' though, IMO.

And of course he's going to say positive things about his new manager, it's not really eyebrow-raising that he did IMO.

...there's enough smoke. Obviously no-one's got proof but I reckon him and Carra have too much power, too much influence. Only an opinion, no proof.

Depends what you mean by too much power/influence.

If they had lost faith in Rafa and expressed it, i think they're entitled to.

If they had an actual say in his sacking, then that isnt their place - i'd also question a regime that allows players to have a say in such matters too.

[Craig_H]

I love the way you need concrete proof to believe!

You're like Mulder or is it Scully?!

when we're talking about vilifying a Liverpool legend and someone who's done more for this club on the field than most others, the necessity for proof is increased

[Craig_H]

Did I say that Gerrard forced him out!? I don't think I did.

I did insinuate some kind of mutiny with Purslow pulling the strings, and I don't think it's far fetched to assume that was true, if you look into the fact he's standing down.

Gerrard is a Liverpool legend, but I won't reserve any stick he gets if he's been involved in any kind of ****wittery with Purslow, for whatever reasons he deeemed legitimate.

It's nothing to do with Rafa taking higher priority. I just think that he's been harshly treated and I would love him to clear his name. That is all. I don't think this shows that I've got an overriding love (above all things LFC) for him.

If is a crucial word, but to me, it looks like you've already made up your mind and hung, drawn and quartered him.

I also strongly suspect that if the manager in question had been Houllier, the strength of your feelings against Gerrard wouldnt even be in the same ballpark.

I agree with the general tenor of the posts of Nige, Shaggy and Plod.

But I agree with Craig in one respect - I think Gerrard has done enough for the club over the years for us to tread carefully in how far we take our criticisms of him. I'm not saying he's above criticism but he's earned the benefit of whatever doubt there is.

I think he's done enough to earn our loyalty, personally.

And the crux of the issue for me, is that whilst it's true that IF those things did happen (i'm still not sure what Gerrard or Carra would/could have done to actually get Rafa out) then it's not the place of players to do that - however, the fact is that Gerrard is still at the club and hugely instrumental in our fortunes while Rafa currently isnt, so whilst i have sympathy for the way Rafa was treated, he isnt at Liverpool right now and as such, i feel my priority or 'bias' even, if you would call it that, would lie with Liverpool FC and in this case, our skipper.

[Neil Young]

If is a crucial word, but to me, it looks like you've already made up your mind and hung, drawn and quartered him.

I also strongly suspect that if the manager in question had been Houllier, the strength of your feelings against Gerrard wouldnt even be in the same ballpark.

I think that's true for me. And not just me - you've only got to look at the positive reception to rumours of player revolt against Hodger to see that the identity of the manager plays a part.

If I can quote a few of your own words:

when we're talking about vilifying a Liverpool legend and someone who's done more for this club...than most others, the necessity for proof is increased

I'm sure you agree that applies to Benitez.

[Kenneth]

Deleted

[Craig_H]

I wouldnt have thought so, he'd have exposed himself as an idiot on several occasions by now, if he was

I think that's true for me. And not just me - you've only got to look at the positive reception to rumours of player revolt against Hodger to see that the identity of the manager plays a part.

If I can quote a few of your own words:



I'm sure you agree that applies to Benitez.

Well yes, of course it does apply to Benitez - but he's not the one being hung out to dry over this situation (with little real substance too, IMO).

In terms of Purslow v Rafa - whether or not i have much to go on in terms of what Purslow's meant to have done wrong, i'd side with Rafa all the way because, and even taking aside personal feelings, i consider Rafa to be someone who would ultimately be more capable (and indeed willing) of getting LFC where it needs to be (all within the context of any notion that he may return).

[Neil Young]

I think he's done enough to earn our loyalty, personally.

And the crux of the issue for me, is that whilst it's true that IF those things did happen (i'm still not sure what Gerrard or Carra would/could have done to actually get Rafa out) then it's not the place of players to do that - however, the fact is that Gerrard is still at the club and hugely instrumental in our fortunes while Rafa currently isnt, so whilst i have sympathy for the way Rafa was treated, he isnt at Liverpool right now and as such, i feel my priority or 'bias' even, if you would call it that, would lie with Liverpool FC and in this case, our skipper.

Sure, but you have to allow for the fact people grieve in different ways. And I think grief is the right word for how some of us felt about the departure of Benitez. And it's not easy to let those feelings go when you see the current mess.

I'm not pretending people are grieving like someone has actually died but the emotion is still the same, even if it felt less deeply.

[Craig_H]

Sure, but you have to allow for the fact people grieve in different ways. And I think grief is the right word for how some of us felt about the departure of Benitez. And it's not easy to let those feelings go when you see the current mess.

I'm not pretending people are grieving like someone has actually died but the emotion is still the same, even if it felt less deeply.

I can understand that. And without doubt, i would like Rafa back tomorrow, if it were possible.

I'd just prefer to see a scenario whereby things werent turned into a case of our best player vs our best manager (since Kenny) - both could/should work together for the benefit of LFC.

I dont feel comfortable in pitching them up against each other, i love them both.

[Neil Young]

I can understand that. And without doubt, i would like Rafa back tomorrow, if it were possible.

I'd just prefer to see a scenario whereby things werent turned into a case of our best player vs our best manager (since Kenny) - both could/should work together for the benefit of LFC.

I dont feel comfortable in pitching them up against each other, i love them both.

I agree, polarised arguments are rarely helpful. Then again, this is an internet forum so that's how things tend to work.

[Craig_H]

No it isnt.

[destinydude]

I can understand that. And without doubt, i would like Rafa back tomorrow, if it were possible.

I'd just prefer to see a scenario whereby things werent turned into a case of our best player vs our best manager (since Kenny) - both could/should work together for the benefit of LFC.

I dont feel comfortable in pitching them up against each other, i love them both.

I woudln't and no one should either. It takes time for the wounds to heal and for the whole saga to be forgotten(you still have to understand that a section of the players were unhappy and that's why we had a managerial change)

The emotion and respect b/w the players and the manager won't be the same.

Somewhere down the line I'd take Rafa but not now or not in 2-3 yrs time.

It's absolute madness to call for him now esp if that comes out from your heart. I'd understand if it's an emotional appeal but in no way is it logical.

[Craig_H]

I woudln't and no one should either. It takes time for the wounds to heal and for the whole saga to be forgotten(you still have to understand that a section of the players were unhappy and that's why we had a managerial change)

The emotion and respect b/w the players and the manager won't be the same.

Somewhere down the line I'd take Rafa but not now or not in 2-3 yrs time.

It's absolute madness to call for him now esp if that comes out from your heart. I'd understand if it's an emotional appeal but in no way is it logical.

Have you SEEN us under Hodgson?

I'd say it's entirely logical.

[Kenneth]

I woudln't and no one should either. It takes time for the wounds to heal and for the whole saga to be forgotten(you still have to understand that a section of the players were unhappy and that's why we had a managerial change)

The emotion and respect b/w the players and the manager won't be the same.

Somewhere down the line I'd take Rafa but not now or not in 2-3 yrs time.

It's absolute madness to call for him now esp if that comes out from your heart. I'd understand if it's an emotional appeal but in no way is it logical.

Ok.

[destinydude]

Have you SEEN us under Hodgson?

I'd say it's entirely logical.

Just cos Hodgson p*ssed all over us doesn't mean calling for Rafa is right.