Pack your bags Roy

[Scratch]

As I said looking at what we had on the bench I'm not convinced taking Mascherano off and bringing on one of Voronin, Babel or Riera would have made too much difference

But in certain games Mascher was a virtual passenger, as we were in ascendency...even the likes of Riera and Babel...even Voronin... would have just given the opposition something else to worry about? No?

[Lecter]

What i saw last season, and this is "IMO" incase i'm being accused of saying its fact, is teams very happy to concede possession against us, sitting back deep, nicely compact and tight, knowing well we offer nothing in the wide areas so packing the central areas, in which it was inevitable the ball was going to come back into, proved very effective against us and we seemed to run out of ideas and lacked the guile and craft to break certain teams down.

Setting up your team at Anfield with 2 DM's, especially when those players are Lucas and Masch against the lesser opposition, is negative and bizarre "IMO" , having Alonso there with Masch is completely different story.

This is the Hodgson blueprint

[Craig_H]

As I said looking at what we had on the bench I'm not convinced taking Mascherano off and bringing on one of Voronin, Babel or Riera would have made too much difference

Whether it would or wouldnt, it's about playing the percentages.

Voronin, Babel or Riera, by very virtue of the fact that they're attacking players and would therefore be in or around the danger areas of the park, would have a higher chance of scoring or creating something, than Mascherano would've done.

[Lecter]

But in certain games Mascher was a virtual passenger, as we were in ascendency...even the likes of Riera and Babel...even Voronin... would have just given the opposition something else to worry about? No?

No

I'm not convinced they would have turned the tide

I appreciate the sentiment of what you are saying but the reality is that all of those players are ****ing ****e

[Kenneth]

Not really, because our team when we played them in 2005, was vastly inferior to that which we have now.

Sitting on the edge of your own box for 45 mins is potentially suicidal, whichever way you look at it. Smaller clubs do it because they have an inferiority complex which tells them they cant set up higher up the park because they'll leave space behind and get destroyed. We're not a club or team of that ilk, though. Unfortunately, as a manager, it's all Roy's been used to, which explains why we're doing it. He needs to snap out of it though.

Pushing forward could have been equally risky. It was the right approach at the right time. It worked. And you make it sound like we kept 11 men on the goal line, which we didn't.

[Craig_H]

Pushing forward could have been equally risky. It was the right approach at the right time. It worked. And you make it sound like we kept 11 men on the goal linewhich we didn't.

I'm not saying push forward. But play a little higher up the park, certainly.

It worked on that occasion, partly due to luck, partly due to good defending and partly due to Chelsea missing crucial members of their team.

[Scratch]

Whilst the points issue is a no brainer, there's another value to not losing which is important, and that's to do with momentum, confidence and habits.

True enough...but there were games when Reina and the back 5 were merely spectators, and we didn't seem in any danger or conceding...these were the games where taking Mascher off, and throwing on Babel or Riera or even one of the young ones might have been enough to grab us all the points.

That's what i mean when i say he was too worried about losing.

[Craig_H]

No

I'm not convinced they would have turned the tide

I appreciate the sentiment of what you are saying but the reality is that all of those players are ****ing ****e

It doesnt matter if they're ****e, if there's more of them in the box, the opposition have more to think about and worry about, and this makes the chances of an opposition defender making a mistake (or indeed a chance dropping to one of our lads in the box) far more likely.

You cannot dispute this.

[Lecter]

Whether it would or wouldnt, it's about playing the percentages.

Voronin, Babel or Riera, by very virtue of the fact that they're attacking players and would therefore be in or around the danger areas of the park, would have a higher chance of scoring or creating something, than Mascherano would've done.

If they were good players you'd be playing percentages but if the chances of you scoring with Mascherano being on the pitch are 1 in 1000 do you think Voronin was going to significantly raise that? Oh ok with Voronin replacing Mascherano the chances of you scoring might go up to 2 in 1000

As I said to Scratch I can understand the sentiment but I'm none too convinced of the reality of that

[Scratch]

Whether it would or wouldnt, it's about playing the percentages.

Voronin, Babel or Riera, by very virtue of the fact that they're attacking players and would therefore be in or around the danger areas of the park, would have a higher chance of scoring or creating something, than Mascherano would've done.

I can't work out if you're agreeing with me or arguing with me sometimes...you're more confusing than my missus.

[Fredo]

Personally i thought Rafa set his team up with the fine details, solid,compact and functional. Firstly not to lose and then maybe nick a goal. Rarely last season in particular, did we control games IMO, nor did we really control possession.

Suppose it depends on what your definition of what possession is, if its Carra passing it to Skrtel, Skrtel passing it back to Carra, Carra passing it to Masch, Masch passing it Lucas, Lucas passing it to Carra, and Carra booting the living piss out of it and...... giving it straight back to the opposition well then power to you. My definition of having effective possession is having it in the right areas, and making that possession count for something.

Aimless, one dimensional passing in teh CM beween Lucas and Masch, or in defense between Carra and Skrtel etc was so frustrating last season.

What i saw last season, and this is "IMO" incase i'm being accused of saying its fact, is teams very happy to concede possession against us, sitting back deep, nicely compact and tight, knowing well we offer nothing in the wide areas so packing the central areas, in which it was inevitable the ball was going to come back into, proved very effective against us and we seemed to run out of ideas and lacked the guile and craft to break certain teams down.

Setting up your team at Anfield with 2 DM's, especially when those players are Lucas and Masch against the lesser opposition, is negative and bizarre "IMO" , having Alonso there with Masch is completely different story.

It was widely accepted that Rafa's problems last season came mostly from things out of his realm & which were mostly imposed onto him (I don't think I need to go into all of the details for you to understand what I mean). Who else was available to him apart from Lucas & Mascherano? Spearing & the convalescent Aquilani?

[Craig_H]

True enough...but there were games when Reina and the back 5 were merely spectators, and we didn't seem in any danger or conceding...these were the games where taking Mascher off, and throwing on Babel or Riera or even one of the young ones might have been enough to grab us all the points.

That's what i mean when i say he was too worried about losing.

I agree with you on this. I think we both agree about the value of not losing. The issue is with whether or not taking off a Mascherano and replacing him with an attacking player, would represent a genuine level of serious risk, in terms of us losing the game. Mostly, i would say not.

[Craig_H]

If they were good players you'd be playing percentages but if the chances of you scoring with Mascherano being on the pitch are 1 in 1000 do you think Voronin was going to significantly raise that? Oh ok with Voronin replacing Mascherano the chances of you scoring might go up to 2 in 1000

As I said to Scratch I can understand the sentiment but I'm none too convinced of the reality of that

Sorry, but i think this is rubbish. Even **** players can score an easy tap in, if the right ball drops to them in front of goal. If nothing else, an attacking player or striker would have the instinct to be in the right place at the right time, more so than Mascherano would.

[Lecter]

It doesnt matter if they're ****e, if there's more of them in the box, the opposition have more to think about and worry about, and this makes the chances of an opposition defender making a mistake (or indeed a chance dropping to one of our lads in the box) far more likely.

You cannot dispute this.

More men in the box it just makes the play congested even more

If it was different players I'd gladly accept the point but essentially you are saying bodies in the box = goals and I'm not convinced of that. You cant just pluck someone out of the crowd (lets call him Voronin) and put him in the box and say that would equate to goals

Now if you were bringing on an attacking player that provided movement, a bit of guile and craft then yes I'd be all for it but we werent

IF that season we had someone like Garcia coming off from the bench I reckon we might have just nicked that league but unfortunately we didnt so I'm none too convinced of that argument I can understand the sentiment behind your thoughts and scratches but in reality I dont see it having that much of an impact

[Craig_H]

I can't work out if you're agreeing with me or arguing with me sometimes...you're more confusing than my missus.

I agree with you that you sometimes need to increase your attacking threat. I dont agree that rafa didnt seek to win. I just think that HE thought that the best way of trying to win was different to what you and i think it was.