Tide turning against Carragher?

[Craig_H]

i think youve got to be very careful with carra. at his best he was genuinely world class and 3 seasons ago he was one of the best centrebacks in the world.

no doubt his best days are probably behind him but the hunger and desire is still there. you need to consider his importance to the team, the young players, the fans and the whole club.

he along with gerrard is the heart and soul of the club and you just cant take that out of the team because he's a little past it. his importance to the liverpool football club goes beyond just what he is doing on the pitch. him and stevie stand for what is best about liverpool fc.

people talk about players with passion, pride, the right mentality and talent. these lads have it in spades and they can help bring on the next generation.

carragher could do a guardiola and manage us one day because nobody understands better than him what liverpool football club should stand for.

If the stuff about him yielding too much power re ousting rafa is true, then that is wrong. But it's down to those in power, to not allow that to have happened - eg H&G (but they didnt give a **** about the club) and Purslow, who clearly should've done. And probably did, but just had a seriously ****-up in judgement.

But in just the same way that i dont believe hicks and gillett sacked Rafa because some fans got on his back, i also dont believe they would've sacked him because a couple of players were getting mouthy either.

Hicks and Gillett never cared about the feelings of fans and i doubt they gave much importance to how the players felt either. They cared about money and their own ability to retain ownership until they could maximise their return. Rafa was a threat to this with his very public expressions of criticism of the owners and what they were upto - and this is ultimately why they sacked him, aided in no small part by the 7th place finish, which helped them justify the decision for reasons other than "he is exposing us" - something which they could have never said publicly and used as reason for his sacking.

[vonk]

If everything we've read about him lately is true, I think he has become more of a liability than an asset.

And that's a big if. Deserves the benefit of the doubt until someone has proof. So back to the football side....

Carragher is one hopeless right back and always has been. Of course he has been on the decline but I tend to agree with Craig, there is not exactly a ready made replacement. I thought Carra was outstanding against Chelsea at the centre of defence and although he is slow and tends to hoof, there is also his organisational abilities at the back. We should try to play him in the bigger matches for his experience, but with our current form, every game is a big one.

He'll always be a club legend though.

[Drago]

Tbh I don't really care about any of the rumours flowing. He said this/he done this bollocks. What I do care about is the fact that he's been on a steep downward slope form wise the last 18 months, and with his age that's unlikely to get better.

[vonk]

If the stuff about him yielding too much power re ousting rafa is true, then that is wrong. But it's down to those in power, to not allow that to have happened - eg H&G (but they didnt give a **** about the club) and Purslow, who clearly should've done. And probably did, but just had a seriously ****-up in judgement.

But in just the same way that i dont believe hicks and gillett sacked Rafa because some fans got on his back, i also dont believe they would've sacked him because a couple of players were getting mouthy either.

Hicks and Gillett never cared about the feelings of fans and i doubt they gave much importance to how the players felt either. They cared about money and their own ability to retain ownership until they could maximise their return. Rafa was a threat to this with his very public expressions of criticism of the owners and what they were upto - and this is ultimately why they sacked him, aided in no small part by the 7th place finish, which helped them justify the decision for reasons other than "he is exposing us" - something which they could have never said publicly and used as reason for his sacking.

Agreed. Don't believe for a second that one or two players got Rafa sacked. The league table and performances had more of an effect. If we had finished 4th Rafa would still be here.

[Craig_H]

Agreed. Don't believe for a second that one or two players got Rafa sacked. The league table and performances had more of an effect. If we had finished 4th Rafa would still be here.

Possibly, but only because it would've been hard to sack a man who would've been seen to have achieved the minimum requirement. Even if we'd finished 4th, i think the yanks would've wanted to sack him - because their motive was the fact that he wouldnt stop exposing them in public. IMO anyway.

I dont think he was sacked for footballing performance in reality - although that was ultimately the only reason G&H could've publically used as justification for his sacking.

[RichC]

Possibly, but only because it would've been hard to sack a man who would've been seen to have achieved the minimum requirement. Even if we'd finished 4th, i think the yanks would've wanted to sack him - because their motive was the fact that he wouldnt stop exposing them in public. IMO anyway.

I dont think he was sacked for footballing performance in reality - although that was ultimately the only reason G&H could've publically used as justification for his sacking.

yup "footballing performance" may have been given as the reason but there was a hell of a lot more to it than that

[Craig_H]

yup "footballing performance" may have been given as the reason but there was a hell of a lot more to it than that

I think he was seen as an irritant who wouldnt shut up or go away - so they were desperate to get shot. Finishing 7th just gave them a footballing based excuse. Some may suggest that finishing 7th was a valid reason to sack him, others would see it differently.

[RichC]

I think he was seen as an irritant who wouldnt shut up or go away - so they were desperate to get shot. Finishing 7th just gave them a footballing based excuse. Some may suggest that finishing 7th was a valid reason to sack him, others would see it differently.

completly - once the promise of 4th was made you can imagine H&G praying we failed to get there simply as the easiest way to force him out of the door.

[Craig_H]

Aye, i think that 'guarantee' comment was a bit unfortunate for Rafa and ended up being a little costly for him, though i understand why he wanted to express a feeling of confidence. Unfortunate choice of words, is all i could fault him on with that one.

[Rich]

One wonders what Hodgson can guarantee us?

[little dave hedgehog]

no one doesn't.

[RichC]

One wonders what Hodgson can guarantee us?

A rich tea biscuit works a treat with a cup of tea?

[Craig_H]

no one doesn't.

[merlboo]

I've lifted this from another forum

Can its merits be debated ?



The irony of what many in the 'Carra is a hero' camp is firstly, no-one who kicks a ball for a living is a hero. End of.

Secondly, that hero tag is undeserved and largely based on one game in 2005 when there were 12 or 13 so called heroes of which at least 3 I can think of contributed so much more than him ( SG, Didi, Dudek).

His success and status is largely based on the fact that he is from the city and was picked many times when there are better players who werent picked due to foreign managers needing to create the 'scouse heartbeat'.

There has probably been an element of having to maintain a scouse quota with Ged and Rafa in the 2000's so from this perspective Carragher has probably benefitted more than most from still being picked despite not playing well. Its arguable that if he was French or Spanish he would have half the games under his belt that he currently has. He also benefitted massively from having Sami alongside him; the obvious shortcomings in Carraghers game being illuminated since Sami left with such dignity.

This purely footballing view though is not what the debate is about. If he had said **** off to the fans last week, and had not been getting involved with Purslow getting rid of Rafa, becoming friend of Kelvin McKenzies radio station and the lack of support for the previous manager yet supporting Hodgson at every turn, then people might be giving him the benefit of the doubt. Added to this though, leaving the Spanish boys to say what we all wanted them to say about the yanks, not playing for England to prolong his career yet effectively having no gap between last season and this by wanting World Cup glory,constantly bollocking and probably damaging the confidence of players in his team (-doesnt do it to Gerrard when he makes a howler), refusing to play where the manager asks him and threatening to leave if he is not getting picked, all add to the weight of evidence which show him in a self serving scheming light.

The final confirmation of this view was the sneaking in, under the takeover success of NESV, of a 2 year contract, probably as a reward from Purslow. This really smacked of complete selfishness and represents a clandestine act at odds with someone who really loves the club.

Every great footballers autobiography has a bit where they say they know their time is up ( Keegan getting skinned by Lawrenson etc}, but Carragher almost treats LFC as his Sunday league team by refusing to recognise he is well past it, as seen many times this season. The shame of it all is that the captain of the team has often been referred to as Stevie Me, when that accolade should have gone to a far more deserving member of the scouse heartbeat

[Craig_H]

Blimey, you've really got it in for him

We were wondering who the next target would be after H&G, and then Purslow - i guess we have our answer.