Tide turning against Carragher?

[Redbug1]

Just for fun (from players I have witnessed).

---------------------------Reina-----------------------------------

Nicol-------------Hansen------------Thompson---------Kennedy

--------------Souness-----------------Whelan--------------------

Gerrard-------------------Dalglish------------------------Barnes

----------------------------Torres---------------------------------

I know, Brucie or Clem should perhaps go in ahead of Reina, and Rushie ahead of Torres (I would love to see Torres playing with someone like Kenny)... but what a team that would be.

I would hate to see Peter Beardsley left out of that line up and I'd add that him and Barnes supplying Torres would be some sight!!

[Redspin]

if you look at some of the CHs is carra in the top 3? Hansen, Lawro, being possibly the best two. then thommo and smith off the top of my head.

carra has been imense for us but not sure he is a great as such.

Emlyn Hughes when he played CB was also much better than Carragher in every respect, in fact incomparably better. Ron Yeats would have towered above Carragher in every sense of the word too and also the under-rated Gillespie, who was good enough to eventually keep Lawrenson out of the side under Dalglish. And then there's also the great Geoff Strong who was ten times the CB Carragher is - like Hughes he could play anywhere and wasn't a specialist CB but he was still better at it than Carragher. Hyypia was also better. These are just off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure I could double the list of CBs who have been better than Carragher if I think about it for a few minutes

[Redspin]

Gerrard is amongst the best ever absolutely no doubt about that

I wouldnt have Carragher near a best all time XI, dont get me wrong Carragher has been a great servant to the club but to get into a best ever XI hes competing against Ron Yeats, Tommy Smith, Alan Hansen, Mark Lawrenson, Gary Gillespie (who I always think is over looked) AND Sami Hyypia amongst others

I just made very similar points without reading your post, so it shows how fans who saw a varied selection of CBs rate Carragher in a similar way. Good to see that you came to the same conclusion as I did about Gary Gillespie

[Redspin]

Carra is in with some pretty unbelievable company though...!

Alan Hansen (8 league titles, 3 European Cups, 2 FA Cups, 3 League Cups)
Gary Gillespie (3 league titles, 1 European Cup, 3 League Cups)
Emlyn Hughes (4 league titles, 2 European Cups, 1 FA Cup, 2 UEFA Cups)
Phil Thomson (7 league titles, 3 European Cups, 1 FA Cup, 3 League Cups, 2 UEFA cups)
Mark Lawrenson (5 league titles, 1 European Cup, 1 FA Cup, 3 League Cups)
Tommy Smith (4 league titles, 2 European Cups, 2 FA Cups, 2 UEFA Cups, 1 Cup Winners Cup)

In fact we never won the Cup Winners' Cup. We lost our only final in Glasgow in 1966, so Smith didn't actually get that one

[Buzzo]

In fact we never won the Cup Winners' Cup. We lost our only final in Glasgow in 1966, so Smith didn't actually get that one

before my time that one.

Damn you Wikipedia!

[CJ]

I was going to mention Crazy horse and thought about yeates.

wasnt going to mention gillespie though.

but we have been embarrassed by riches at CB havent we.

[badpiggy]

I don't remember why but I remember being disappointed when Gillespie joined us only to be amazed by how good he turned out to be. Did he make some big **** up on his debut or am I thinking of someone else?

[Tatterdemalion]

I like these best ever 11 threads. Totally agree that Gillespie is overlooked. We are blessed with so many good players that we could easily come up with 3-4 best 11's that would wipe the floor with every one elses.

On the subject of Carra I fall between the two camps. Great servant, but definitely serving himself lately. TBH I've never rated him much as a technical player - as a committed player certainly, but he struggled before Rafa arrived - he actually owes Rafa a lot as it was he who trusted him to play in the centre IIRC. Houllier had him on the flank and he didn't look good at all.

On the subject of selfishness and off topic really, Jova's comments cheered me up today - totally don't rate him as a player, but he's refused to be considered for international selection until he feels his form for Liverpool is good enough, because he feels it is the right thing to do. Top marks for effort lad.

[Le Chef]

I don't remember why but I remember being disappointed when Gillespie joined us only to be amazed by how good he turned out to be. Did he make some big **** up on his debut or am I thinking of someone else?

Avi Cohen scored an own goal on his debut in that era but promptly went up the other end and scored !!

[Lecter]

I would replace Nicol and Whelan with Neal and Molby

I'd have Nicol at lefback instead of Barney Rubble

I'd also have Whelan ahead of Jan if I had a straight choice of either. Whelan is possibly the most underrated player I've seen at Anfield he was definitely in the category of "you dont know what youve got till its gone". Iwouldnt have either in my all time XI though

I remember reading an article by Paisley when he retired saying he had more bids for Ronnie Whelan and Ray Kennedy than any other players but he alwayssaid "no" because they were too good

[Lecter]

I just made very similar points without reading your post, so it shows how fans who saw a varied selection of CBs rate Carragher in a similar way. Good to see that you came to the same conclusion as I did about Gary Gillespie

Gillespie was probably the most complete centrehalf out of Hansen & Lawrenson and him

He was quite quick a good tackler has great positional sense and was good in the air he was also quite comfortable on the ball

Lawrenson and Hansen were better than him at certain things but as a complete package he was pretty much the ideal centrehalf.

Its a pity he suffered later on with injuries

He'd be worth massive money in modern football particularly when you look at someone like Rio (who probably isnt as complete as Gillespie)

[Lecter]

---------------------------Clemence-----------------------------------

Neal-------------Hansen------------Smith---------Nicol

--------------------------Souness------------------------------------

Callaghan-------------------Gerrard------------------------Barnes

---------------------------Dalglish------------------------------

----------------------------Rush---------------------------------

Torres is a better all round player than Rush (not sure hes a better finisher though) but that partnership of Kenny & Rushie was priceless and to me you would be mad to separate it

[Kronenburg1892]

- he actually owes Rafa a lot as it was he who trusted him to play in the centre IIRC. Houllier had him on the flank and he didn't look good at all.

I agree with your sentiment. He's been a solid player, never technical or attacking, incredible considering he was a forward as a youth, probably says more about the way we use kids in football at a young age.

But I just wanted to pick up on the above quote, not saying you're wrong or anything, because he probably does owe Rafa. But the way he describes his career, he seems to think it was actually Houllier that he owes his chances to. And in some respects he's right. But his best moments were under Rafa. Maybe there'll be a new editorial to his book in the next couple of years that'll put that straight, when he realises the English experiment has obviously failed. Who knows.

[Tatterdemalion]

I agree that Houllier gave him his chances - he became a regular under Houllier but IMO it was under Rafa that he earned his reputation - and not because he's a great player as such but because Rafa set his teams out in a very disciplined way which I think played to Carra's strengths.

[Kronenburg1892]

When most of these players look back, I think they'll have the same sentiment, just like the lads from Valencia did. Just like we do at our old task masters at school.

I'm not going to crucify him over the past 12/18 months, there was a bigger picture to consider, and I guess that's harder to see from the inside sometimes.