Jay Spearing

[Alex]

I read somewhere that the fee was actually nowhere near £3m but a loan and he went on a nominal fee the following year. That £3m was definitely never conformed. Anyway, not going to argue over semantics, we shifted some of those players on for decent money true, but some also cost us a good amount, plus there's wages & effort training etc. I doubt they comprise what we could call a lucrative income stream. And I still think its disappointing that so few seemed to ever get anywhere near making it at the club.

As an aside, has Leto really scored 15 in 17 in the Greek league this season?

But isnt the point though, that we have a youth system that by and large pays for itself. So now players like Kelly, Spearing, Flanagan and Robinson are coming through they are effectively free to bolster the squad. So if they dont work out, we sell them, plough the money back in and try and find the players that will work.

I think our youth system is in pretty good hands at the moment to. We have players that could be coming through in the next 2-3 years in Coady, Sterling, Suso and Silva.

FWIW Suso is looking like a bust now

[Alex]

No question. Not sure about Agger but Lucas hadn't long turned 20 when he signed for us. He's turned out pretty nicely.

Shelvey was a Rafa signing. His last one.

[RichC]

When Rafa arrived, we had two youth internationals. TWO.

We now have 35 on our books.

wow thats a frightening stat.

[Shaggy]

FWIW Suso is looking like a bust now

Thought the same but he's really stepped up again lately.

Just read that Mascherano was younger when he signed for us than Spearing is now.

[Darkon]

When does the youth setup/system start end in peoples opinion?

I don't think we can count buy's like Agger, Pepe and Lucas as our youth players, and I think people like Shelvey are borderline.

To me the youth setup only regards players that can be counted as home-grown in Europe, like proper home-grown. That is where the youth setup is, and the main reason I don't think we can evaluate Rafa's changes untill another 2-5 have passed.

Spearing and Kelly for example are proper home grown players that were scouted in the late 90's and are fully homegrown. Players like Shelvey will be half-home-grown, where as Lucas, Pepe and Agger are none of them.

[dww]

Thought the same but he's really stepped up again lately.

Just read that Mascherano was younger when he signed for us than Spearing is now.

Mascherano (and Alonso) were amazingly developed players at that age - but I think they were also freaks. I think a more useful (or at least hopeful) comparison is with Fletcher. I also kind of feel that Parker's struggles at Chelsea but success at Tottenham might work (albeit the analogy is more complicated).

[dww]

When does the youth setup/system start end in peoples opinion?

I don't think we can count buy's like Agger, Pepe and Lucas as our youth players, and I think people like Shelvey are borderline.

To me the youth setup only regards players that can be counted as home-grown in Europe, like proper home-grown. That is where the youth setup is, and the main reason I don't think we can evaluate Rafa's changes untill another 2-5 have passed.

Spearing and Kelly for example are proper home grown players that were scouted in the late 90's and are fully homegrown. Players like Shelvey will be half-home-grown, where as Lucas, Pepe and Agger are none of them.

I think there are two separate things - the youth setup and then development of young players into the first team. Weneger has done exceptionally at the latter but more averagely at the former. That said you would expect changes made in the youth setup to take up to 10 years to flow through.

There are obvious connections between the two though as you can only really evaluate the youth setup when players from it start playing first team football (whether with us or elsewhere).

[Darkon]

I think there are two separate things - the youth setup and then development of young players into the first team. Weneger has done exceptionally at the latter but more averagely at the former. That said you would expect changes made in the youth setup to take up to 10 years to flow through.

There are obvious connections between the two though as you can only really evaluate the youth setup when players from it start playing first team football (whether with us or elsewhere).

That's what I'm getting at. I think thinks are getting mixed up when we start talking about Leto, Agger, Lucas etc. as part of the youth setup. Even the likes of Shelvey are borderline of being youth players when we get them

Youth setup is from the youth, the others are already developed youth players we are (trying to) take to the next level and they won't count as homegrown. Then we are really more talking about reserve team setup than youth setup.

And agree about the Wenger example. A club like Ajax and Barcelona excel at both, Arsenal at the later and we are really average at both right now.

[Alex]

That's what I'm getting at. I think thinks are getting mixed up when we start talking about Leto, Agger, Lucas etc. as part of the youth setup. Even the likes of Shelvey are borderline of being youth players when we get them

Youth setup is from the youth, the others are already developed youth players we are (trying to) take to the next level and they won't count as homegrown. Then we are really more talking about reserve team setup than youth setup.

So what your saying is we can call a player a youth player when he goes through the system in totality? Because IMO Lucas was a youth player, so is Shelvey. Neither were brought ready to go into the team. We still had some development to do with them.

[Rich]

Just read that Mascherano was younger when he signed for us than Spearing is now.

That's mental

[Darkon]

So what your saying is we can call a player a youth player when he goes through the system in totality? Because IMO Lucas was a youth player, so is Shelvey. Neither were brought ready to go into the team. We still had some development to do with them.

Something like that, not sure exactly when to draw the line but I think the player have to been have attached to our youth system / u-18's for some time to be considered a youth player. Lucas, Shelvey and Agger are/were young players that still needed development for sure, but I think it has more to do with our first team setup towards youngsters than it has to do with our youth setup. If that makes sense?

Either way I think it's confusing the debate/talk if we think of different things, and that's why I brought it up.

[dww]

That's what I'm getting at. I think thinks are getting mixed up when we start talking about Leto, Agger, Lucas etc. as part of the youth setup. Even the likes of Shelvey are borderline of being youth players when we get them

Youth setup is from the youth, the others are already developed youth players we are (trying to) take to the next level and they won't count as homegrown. Then we are really more talking about reserve team setup than youth setup.

And agree about the Wenger example. A club like Ajax and Barcelona excel at both, Arsenal at the later and we are really average at both right now.

In general I think the distinction is helpful. I bought in Agger and Lucas more to talk about Rafas ability to develop young players. It is arguable that no players of sufficient talent were developed by the youth system during Rafa's tenure and that he had no control over that. I think with the likes of Robinson and Kelly he was showing that this treatment would have extended to local players if they were good enough.

I think Spearing is an odd border case - to me he obviously has talent but he's not specialised and neither is he good enough to work well in an ill-defined role or to be pushed into a team.

I think the problem with your last sentence is that we can't judge the youth system now. It has to be done retrospectively. What we can say is that the youth setup was average about 5 years ago and that is about as much as we can do.

[Darkon]

In general I think the distinction is helpful. I bought in Agger and Lucas more to talk about Rafas ability to develop young players. It is arguable that no players of sufficient talent were developed by the youth system during Rafa's tenure and that he had no control over that. I think with the likes of Robinson and Kelly he was showing that this treatment would have extended to local players if they were good enough.

I think Spearing is an odd border case - to me he obviously has talent but he's not specialised and neither is he good enough to work well in an ill-defined role or to be pushed into a team.

I think the problem with your last sentence is that we can't judge the youth system now. It has to be done retrospectively. What we can say is that the youth setup was average about 5 years ago and that is about as much as we can do.

I don't know if it's a problem, but that's how I see it. Bringing in a player from outside at a young age going directly in to the first team/reserve team is more of a first team aspect of developing mature players in to first team players than it's the youth setup (Teixira the latest example).

And agree 100% with the last part of your post. Give it a few more years and we can evaluate how the youth system was under Rafa.

[yamiedo]

Jay is still learning at this level. For that reason I think its extremely harsh some of the criticism I've seen here. Lucas was all over the place when he joined us and look at him now. I see qualities of Lucas in Spearing but as some have pointed out he needs to improve his positioning and anticipation of the ball. He can get caught out to easily but that can improve with match experience and coaching. Lucas can be a good role model for Jay to look up to and learn from. He is still young and may be more of a late bloomer. We should keep him around as a squad player without a doubt.

[The Birdman]

Jay isn't good enough and gets more praise because he is a scouser. That is plain and simple.
However on the much more interesting point of the youth set up I class any player under the age of approx 20 who doesn't go straight into the first team as part of the youth set up.
It's all hyperthetical but surely the point is how much would we recoup if we chose to sell Flanagan, Robinson, Wisdom, Sterling, Shelvey, Coady etc....

I would summise that the current group of 'younger' players are better and worth much more than the ones listed previously (Darby, Nemeth etc....) so surely the academy/youth set up is impomving and doing it's job.

I'd also argue that Carragher, Gerrard, Fowler, McManaman all came through despite our youth system of that time not because of it.
Those players would have made it regardless of where they were born and what club they joined at 13.
3 world class footballer at their peak and 1 top drawer premier league player.

World class players are born not produced that's why Man U haven't produced 1 of note sine the Beckham/Neville/Butt/Scholes era...
What we can do is produce premier league players that make us a healthy profit.