Centre Midfield Will Keep Struggling Until A Change In Tactics

[Arn]

The midfield needs to be tighter I don't think there is much argument there but let's give some perspective.

Table if we started in Jan, think this shows some good progress and most importantly Rodgers has stated he isn't satisfied with the performances; sometimes there is over analysis when we should be enjoying our form which let's be honest is the best since the 08/09 season by a country mile.

It is still our defense that win us games and not the attack. Of course Suarez was banned 10 games and every team would miss a player like him but Rodgers changed his system and tactics before that.

He started to build from the defense after a few months. He saw that it wouldn't work if he had continued to build from the front.

This season he continued to build from the back. He signed up one excellent keeper(Mignolet) that is an excellent shot stopper but not that great sweeper keeper. He signed up one excellent defensive central defender(Sakho) that isn't that great helping out starting up the attacks.

[Gibbo]

I think the team as a whole is getting far to much stick when you compare it too our position. We could certainly do with more midfield competition but I wouldn't exactly call it a weak point as some people have suggested.

[nineteen]

It is still our defense that win us games and not the attack.

Rubbish! The evidence is right in front of you. Look at the screencap again ...

22 goals conceded (lowest total, -1 from City and -2 from United and Arsenal)
51 goals scored (highest total, +4 over second best) and that was without Suarez for 10 games.

Attack is clearly contributing to the wins.

I would be more interested in looking into why we have the same W-D-L record as Tottenham over this period, even though we scored 15 more goals and conceded three fewer.

[Vermilion]

nu nu nunnu nineteen.

[Norbs]

Rubbish! The evidence is right in front of you. Look at the screencap again ...

22 goals conceded (lowest total, -1 from City and -2 from United and Arsenal)
51 goals scored (highest total, +4 over second best) and that was without Suarez for 10 games.

Attack is clearly contributing to the wins.

I would be more interested in looking into why we have the same W-D-L record as Tottenham over this period, even though we scored 15 more goals and conceded three fewer.

That last part is very interesting. It can't be argued that they ground out results as they were clearly scoring well. Were their losses 1-0 results whereas ours by bigger margins? That could mean they are tougher to break down but also devoid of ideas when they're frustrated by opponents. What it says about us is that we absolutely tonked some teams

[frank the tank]

I think it is a good argument / discussion to have. A couple of years ago, we were brilliant in midfield - now it is our weakest area on the pitch. Our defense is very good but now called upon more than it should be because our midfield often leaves the defense wide open.....

I also saw a post recently (didn't pay attention who by.....) that suggests Gerrard doesn't control the game effectively. It essentially suggested that Gerrard continued to play the Hollywood balls even when we were winning games and these passes were being intercepted and re-invited pressure onto the team.....

Personally, I think we would be a worse team without Gerrard in it. I also think that we would be a worse team without Lucas in it. In Coutinho and Johnson we have a few players coming back into the team that will essentially make us stronger. But i personally think it is going to be a very very important season for Joe Allen when he comes back. When he first started with LFC, i was so impressed by his ball retention and ability to control the pace of a game. He really looked like the Welsh Xavi! Then after about 10 games, it went tits up for him. If he can get some sort of half-decent form back, then it would be very interesting to see how Brendan integrates all of Gerrard, Lucas, Henderson and Allen.

I suspect that the way we have started to play 3 centre backs isnt forced upon BR like he seems to suggest. Skrtel's recent resurgence has probably played into it but in reality, we signed 2 centre backs for 25m quid when we already had 3 good ones in Agger, Ture and Skrtel and young Martin Kelly to come back as well. I suspect that the long term plan is to play with 3 centre backs.

Also, the fact that we signed Cissokho - who is a very attack-minded left back - ties into this thinking as well..... him and Glen could play as wing backs and offer loads from wide areas.

However, some people will quite rightly say "what about when we are at home to the likes of Crystal Palace". Personally, i wouldn't be too surprised to see something along the lines of:

------------------MIGNOLET---------------------


------SKRTEL------AGGER------SAHKO-----------------


JOHNSON--GERRARD--LUCAS--HENDERSON----COUTINHO

---------SUAREZ---------STURRIDGE--------------


With essentially everyone except Lucas given license to bomb on....



Overall, it will be very interesting to see what happens to our midfield. Alonso has been rumoured. I would love it but personally i can't see it happening. Also, whose position would he take?!?!

[Norbs]

[Dirtydancing] Nobody puts Coutinho in the corner [/Dirtydancing]

[Darkon]

The formation pictures aren't made by me.

The article isn't bollox. How many times do our central defenders make attacking runs this season? It happened very often Rodgers first few months as our manager. Now it more or less never happen.

Rodgers himself said that two attacking players shouldn't track back all time because the opponent would then need to have more players covering them.

We do have a big gap between our strikers and our central midfield. That isn't bollox. We have ourself moaned that it is a problem and we need a more physical CM but now when an article states that(the gap thing) then suddenly that isn't a problem

We have ourself moaned that we don't play as a unit and now when an article states that we don't, then suddenly we play as a unit

I really can't say that we scored that many goals. 11 in seven games isn't that much. Second highers scorers in the league but not even 1.5 goals a game still isn't that much.

It is our defense that earned us many points this season and not the attack. You could say the same about teams like Chelsea, Southampton and Tottenham.

It is the defense that earn points this season in the league. The attacking play have been worse than usual.

You don't see that many high scoring games this season so far. If you score two goals then you can almost be sure that you will get three points.

I think that is because many of the teams have new managers and they build from the back. Rodgers is doing that now for example.

Re point 1: Our defenders push up during games, they don't linger back in just in front of our own field as the articles suggest. And that is something different from what you argue with, that they don't make attacking runs. Outside Agger, the CD's don't make attacking runs but they still push up the line to just a bit back from the midfield line.

There is quite the difference between needing a different type of midfielder i.e. a more physical presence and needing to change the system, which you seem to equate here.

The two strikers stay up front yes, but the article guy seem to suggest that the AM never tracks back which is clearly wrong if he watched our games. Hell even Suarez was back tackling at times against Palace.

Secondly, in the comparison he makes, he suggest our defensive line and CM line is static when from defence and hardly moves a meter - which creates the apparent gap - and that is complete bollox. Gerrard is present outside the opponents field most times, and Lucas ventures up around the mid circle as Mascher and Alonso did. IMO the article is completely wrong when stating otherwise. Of course we are caught in possession loss at times, every team are, and we have some gaps when that happens, but it's nothing to build an article on. I think the tactical analyzis is way off in the OP.

I don't think anyone, or at least me, is arguing that we are playing as a unit. We are not, there is still much to learn and many new players to incorporate. It will get there with time, and progress is made.

[RedReet]

That is excellent. All I'd say is we are very good at playing when the pressure's off - 2nd half of last season was largely pressure free. Different matter since August and it's been great, yet we've been nowhere near our best. Great progress but it starts to get serious after the international break.

While that normally has been the case for us over the years, I’m not so sure it played as big a part last year. If you look at our results for April and May, we dropped a lot of easy points, including no wins from 4 at home and a draw away from home to Reading.


West ham (h): 0-0
Reading (a): 0-0
Chelsea (h): 2-2
Newcastle (a): 6-0
Everton (h): 0-0
Fulham (a) 3-1
QPR (h): 0-0

During that run in when the pressure was seemingly off our points average for this year dropped, so it’s debatable we played better when under pressure, ie. after Christmas when we were in danger of having one of our worst finishes ever and at the beginning of this season.


That to me suggest a lot of credit has to go to Rodgers and the players, specifically the new signings in January that took us up a level. Since we signed them and got Lucas back in the team, we really have looked a top 4 side and justifiably so.

[dww]

Re point 1: Our defenders push up during games, they don't linger back in just in front of our own field as the articles suggest. And that is something different from what you argue with, that they don't make attacking runs. Outside Agger, the CD's don't make attacking runs but they still push up the line to just a bit back from the midfield line.

There is quite the difference between needing a different type of midfielder i.e. a more physical presence and needing to change the system, which you seem to equate here.

The two strikers stay up front yes, but the article guy seem to suggest that the AM never tracks back which is clearly wrong if he watched our games. Hell even Suarez was back tackling at times against Palace.

Secondly, in the comparison he makes, he suggest our defensive line and CM line is static when from defence and hardly moves a meter - which creates the apparent gap - and that is complete bollox. Gerrard is present outside the opponents field most times, and Lucas ventures up around the mid circle as Mascher and Alonso did. IMO the article is completely wrong when stating otherwise. Of course we are caught in possession loss at times, every team are, and we have some gaps when that happens, but it's nothing to build an article on. I think the tactical analyzis is way off in the OP.

I don't think anyone, or at least me, is arguing that we are playing as a unit. We are not, there is still much to learn and many new players to incorporate. It will get there with time, and progress is made.

I think the article has two main flaws - the pictures are too much of a cartoon of the situation without nuance or backup evidence (player heat maps say) and choosing Rafa's team for the comparison.

I think if you look at this season against last it is clear that our midfield is less open in a defensive sense and less free in an attacking one. Whether true or not the impression is that this is because they midfield two are deeper and less prone to move forward. It seems unlike in some teams where the positioning of the defensive line is set by a CB coming forward ours is by Gerrard coming back.

Strategically we seem to be letting the opposition have possession in some areas more than others - even willing to give low percentage shots to them in order to maintain shape. In a way this is a better implemented version of things that Hodgson does but it has seemed to reduce our creativity. At the minute I think the balance is wrong but the necessary change might be more subtle than some (including the author of the OP) suggest.

[Darkon]

I think the article has two main flaws - the pictures are too much of a cartoon of the situation without nuance or backup evidence (player heat maps say) and choosing Rafa's team for the comparison.

I think if you look at this season against last it is clear that our midfield is less open in a defensive sense and less free in an attacking one. Whether true or not the impression is that this is because they midfield two are deeper and less prone to move forward. It seems unlike in some teams where the positioning of the defensive line is set by a CB coming forward ours is by Gerrard coming back.

Strategically we seem to be letting the opposition have possession in some areas more than others - even willing to give low percentage shots to them in order to maintain shape. In a way this is a better implemented version of things that Hodgson does but it has seemed to reduce our creativity. At the minute I think the balance is wrong but the necessary change might be more subtle than some (including the author of the OP) suggest.

I completely agree that we have somewhat changed our focus during games, and especially when getting in front. It seems that Rodgers have become aware of the joy of defending a lead, something we have had problems with for some time now.

It's furthermore interesting if looking across the European football landscape, where there seems to me to be a trend of doing as you state - letting the oppositions have the ball more than have been the trend in the past ~5 years. It seems to me, that a lot of managers have been inspired by the Dortmund, Bayern, Juve succes and have looked towards the problems a lot of teams trying to implement the Barca model have had. Even Barca today have started to let the opponents have more play now and stand back further and plays more direct going forward now.

It seems to me the model is, and something Rodgers have taken to him, that if you don't win the ball quickly from the opponent it's better to stand back and let them have the small-precentage chances. It's especially a trend when teams are leading now that they go back to defend. Realism and the awe struck of a golden Barca generation have settled a bit, and football is returning a bit more to the 'normal'.

One of the most interesting developments from a tactical POV is IMO to see how Atletico Madrid have transformed back in to the old 4-4-2 model, but without the really quick wingers and have starting to utilize a power through the middle model. It's a transformation to controlling football from a different place than have been the recent trend, and I think it will prove succesfull.

[RedReet]

I think the article has two main flaws - the pictures are too much of a cartoon of the situation without nuance or backup evidence (player heat maps say) and choosing Rafa's team for the comparison.

I think if you look at this season against last it is clear that our midfield is less open in a defensive sense and less free in an attacking one. Whether true or not the impression is that this is because they midfield two are deeper and less prone to move forward. It seems unlike in some teams where the positioning of the defensive line is set by a CB coming forward ours is by Gerrard coming back.

Strategically we seem to be letting the opposition have possession in some areas more than others - even willing to give low percentage shots to them in order to maintain shape. In a way this is a better implemented version of things that Hodgson does but it has seemed to reduce our creativity. At the minute I think the balance is wrong but the necessary change might be more subtle than some (including the author of the OP) suggest.

I haven’t had a chance top read the article, but that was a point I was going to make after reading the first few lines. Although we have conceded a lot of shots this year, the vast majority from them have been from outside the box, so I do think it’s as much through design as flaw. I do think we are probably still conceding too many shots for Rodgers liking, but we are still a work in progress. I was reading an article and it specifically said the number of shots we’ve conceded in the box is extremely low, and that was even though 2 came against Stoke via the penalty and then the rebounded goal for Norwich.

Set-pieces seems more of an issue for me, and that’s something the whole team need to work on.

[Mattshark]

While that normally has been the case for us over the years, I’m not so sure it played as big a part last year. If you look at our results for April and May, we dropped a lot of easy points, including no wins from 4 at home and a draw away from home to Reading.


West ham (h): 0-0
Reading (a): 0-0
Chelsea (h): 2-2
Newcastle (a): 6-0
Everton (h): 0-0
Fulham (a) 3-1
QPR (h): 0-0

During that run in when the pressure was seemingly off our points average for this year dropped, so it’s debatable we played better when under pressure, ie. after Christmas when we were in danger of having one of our worst finishes ever and at the beginning of this season.


That to me suggest a lot of credit has to go to Rodgers and the players, specifically the new signings in January that took us up a level. Since we signed them and got Lucas back in the team, we really have looked a top 4 side and justifiably so.

We beat QPR 1-0 on the last day of last season.

[RichC]

An article from the other side of the fence.

Brendan Rodgers, Tactical Genius?

Liverpool fan ‘@Support_Believe‘ provides insight into Brendan Rodgers‘ use of the new 3-4-1-2 formation and the long-term plan of the boss.



The 3-4-1-2 formation was, for some, a tactic that was new and unknown up until the League Cup tie at Old Trafford last month. Shortly after kickoff the realisation of a new line up was in front of us. Sky Sports had confidently set out the team as 4-4-2 with Suarez’s return they knew he had to be levered back in but where?

4-4-2 was the obvious solution to their problems, so confident that they plastered it up on the screen at every given opportunity. If nothing more, it proved, to some, the laissez faire attitude within the media. It also proved one really big point – they are guessing! Not only are they guessing but also they are lazy with it, and the sad thing in all of that is? Joe public hangs on their every word likes it means something!

Meanwhile back in the changing room Brendan continued with instruction after instruction, a reminder of drill after drill, remember, remember, remember, if this happens, that has to happen, if he goes there, you drop in there, and you move over there, are we all clear? ARE WE ALL CLEAR? Yes Boss! The troops go on their way to carry out the duties as assigned, some fearing the consequences of failure already.

Of course, instruction is one thing, drills and repetition are another but, human error or brilliance, loses or wins the day, always has always will. Why did Jose leave his man? Was Gerrard culpable in any way? Was the system to blame? The questions and many more follow the day after. The system was new granted, worked on in parts during the end of last season, refined and studied over the break. Has Brendan got a ‘redprint’ for the future? Damn right he has and it will be a system copied throughout football over time.

Brendan looks from the outside to be tinkering with ‘systems’ and its fair to say he is to an extent but the criticism following his Southampton selection of 4 centre-backs wasn’t really fair, why?

Because it was something forced upon him at the time, and he, like the new manager at a really big club, with seasoned pros who are popular with the fans, conceded! He conceded long after team selection and into the next day, 3 hours before kick off in fact. Why? Because a player pleaded with him to be selected, begged him you could say. Brendan feels for this guy, he knows, if this new guy comes in he could finish him and he’ll never get back in the team again. So Brendan bows to pressure and it bites him on the arse, a valuable lesson learnt that will never be repeated




So lets look at the system…

Any F1 fan will tell you that team tactics are the cornerstone of their sport. I wont bang on about it too much so don’t stop reading just yet. Tactics are analysed on a second by second basis. The top 3 in a recent GP finished so close to each other that by the time you have read this sentence they had all crossed the line and the prizes decided. Was 1st place won by chance? Tactics won the day and they nearly always will in that sport.

The monitoring of which tactic to use or change to is, as I said earlier, monitored on a second by second basis and relayed to the drivers accordingly to tweak from their £100,000 steering wheel. A click here and a switch there and the race mode is transformed completely. The individual car set up and tactic are relevant to the race conditions. Conditions change? They have a plan for that, in fact, they have a plan for everything!! Does it always work? No, but through refining of the tactics a better result is secured next time.

So where does this fit into football? more specifically, for us anyway, Liverpool FC.

3-4-1-2 is arguably the most interesting tactic of Brendan’s reign so far. I’d go as far as to say, it’s the most interesting tactic currently used in football. Why? Because it has flexibility like no other. Lets start with my preferred team selection this year, assuming everyone was fit.



In anyone book, that’s a strong team. A nice balance. enough attack-minded players to win you most games, enough defenders to snuff out any dangers. It can quite literally become several different formations at any given moment; very defensive, defensive, balanced, counter, attack, very attacking. What other formation gives you that scope?

If you are anything like me you will look at that image and say, we can beat anyone in the Premier League with that team, but it is vital to know how the opposition are intending to play against you in order for you to counteract their system. Not everyone gets team news and formations early enough to do anything about it. So what’s the next best thing? A formation that can morph into another, then another and another if needed? A team and personnel who know the role required of them in that change? Wouldn’t that be nice! Well that’s what we are starting to see. It’s in its infancy granted but it will become part of the fabric and when it does, watch out!

Of course, personnel are massive, and we didn’t just come across the players we have now by chance. You can point to the odd exception that isn’t working right now but you have to understand, this is new to nearly all if them. A plan is in place for every single player, be that weight gain, muscle gain, sharpness, whatever, point is there is a plan. Ask yourself, when did you last feel that our manager had ‘a plan’?

Ok OK! We all know it was Rafa, and boy did he have a plan! Shame the owners at the time didn’t buy into it, but that’s another story. Look at the other managers, sorry but King Kenny is in here to. They didn’t have a plan other than, defend via the Owl or Kenny’s attack philosophy, neither work in the modern game, they are just too simplistic.

The game has come a long was since my first game standing on the Annie Road in ’76 when the only conversation before the game was will we win or not. Now we discuss fitness, tactics, positional sense and the likes. I remember playing a game of Madden NFL 20 years ago and seeing the various tactics and thinking, what? What are these things saying to me? So I would pick something random and hope it paid off, it never did! American sports showed us the way all those years ago, this is why FSG understand Rodgers.

Rodgers has always understood tactics and the magnitude of them, that players need 2/3 positions that they are comfortable in, the need for a system they know and know well, its not your average Premier League system, its unique and the ‘redprint’ to return Liverpool, one day, back to greatness.

Remember when a certain Bill Shankly walked into Melwood? He changed everything; it took time because it all had to change, training, eating, sleeping, the lot!

See any similarities?

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2013/10/brendan-rodgers-tactical-genius/

[The Birdman]

We could concede 20 shots per game if 90% are from 25 yards out and being taken under pressure.
We've signed a goalkeeper, one who is good at saving shots.
Fans are blasé about Suarez scoring because 'its his job, that's what he's in the team to do' yet the same fans get their knickers in a twist at a goalkeeper doing exactly what he's in the team to do.

You know, saving shots, those that the pesky opposition have.

Conceding a high (ish) number of shots per game can actually be a sign of good defending. If the majority of those shots taken are from outside the box then it shows teams don't feel they can break us down, maybe don't feel they can score from a cross put in so they lose patience and take on a shot from 25-30 yards which has very little chance of going in.

Yes the odd one will fly in, maybe get deflected but the stats will show that Mingolet is very, very good at saving shots from distance.

The only defensive problem we need to sort out is set pieces.