Dejan Lovren

[Norbs]

I'm not sure he's being contrary by pointing out that VVD seems above criticism

[Slinky Skills]

You're an odd chap. It's like you only like really **** footballers.

Ha ha!

Lovren is ****ing garbage. The sooner he's gone the better, ideally he'd never play another game for us again.

[Norbs]

Nailed on he'll ****ing play on Wednesday

[Red_Polo]

I'm not sure he's being contrary by pointing out that VVD seems above criticism

Surely if he's criticising VVD that's exactly what it is? It flies in the face of the idea he's above criticism.

[Norbs]

Surely if he's criticising VVD that's exactly what it is? It flies in the face of the idea he's above criticism.

I think Kenneth is pointing out that he's the only person that's noticed VVD has made mistakes and got away with it.

[Kenneth]

You're an odd chap. It's like you only like really **** footballers.

Everyone makes mistakes, some obviously make more than others, and some significantly more than others. Lovren is at the stage where a mistake like VVD's gets him called a cunt and a joke of a footballer, and VVD is at the stage where nobody mentions it and there's a conspiracy of silence to pretend it didn't happen. My main objection in discussions about our '**** footballers' is how extreme and polarised the conversation is and the lack of perspective. Our goalkeeping mistakes are emphasized disproportionately when compared to what is par for the course in the PL, I've seen Lloris make as many significant errors this season qs ours, but people would jizz themselves if we signed him as a replacement and certain people would claim the title was in the bag. Lovren has had up and down periods with us, but look at Utd's CBs, they're above us in the league.. would you take Phil Jones or Chris Smalling instead? Essentially we exaggerate the failings of our players relative to most of their peers.

[Chris]

Strange, you’ve always been snide as **** with Karius.

[dom9]

Everyone makes mistakes, some obviously make more than others, and some significantly more than others. Lovren is at the stage where a mistake like VVD's gets him called a cunt and a joke of a footballer, and VVD is at the stage where nobody mentions it and there's a conspiracy of silence to pretend it didn't happen. My main objection in discussions about our '**** footballers' is how extreme and polarised the conversation is and the lack of perspective. Our goalkeeping mistakes are emphasized disproportionately when compared to what is par for the course in the PL, I've seen Lloris make as many significant errors this season qs ours, but people would jizz themselves if we signed him as a replacement and certain people would claim the title was in the bag. Lovren has had up and down periods with us, but look at Utd's CBs, they're above us in the league.. would you take Phil Jones or Chris Smalling instead? Essentially we exaggerate the failings of our players relative to most of their peers.

I agree Preach.

[Red_Polo]

I think Kenneth is pointing out that he's the only person that's noticed VVD has made mistakes and got away with it.

Indeed. Quite contrary to everyone else.

[Red_Polo]

Everyone makes mistakes, some obviously make more than others, and some significantly more than others. Lovren is at the stage where a mistake like VVD's gets him called a cunt and a joke of a footballer, and VVD is at the stage where nobody mentions it and there's a conspiracy of silence to pretend it didn't happen. My main objection in discussions about our '**** footballers' is how extreme and polarised the conversation is and the lack of perspective. Our goalkeeping mistakes are emphasized disproportionately when compared to what is par for the course in the PL, I've seen Lloris make as many significant errors this season qs ours, but people would jizz themselves if we signed him as a replacement and certain people would claim the title was in the bag. Lovren has had up and down periods with us, but look at Utd's CBs, they're above us in the league.. would you take Phil Jones or Chris Smalling instead? Essentially we exaggerate the failings of our players relative to most of their peers.

I agree with much of this, but it's also probably a mistake to analyse 'venting' criticism that arises when these incidents happen as though it were ever intended to be an objective assessment of that isolated situation.

[dom9]

I agree with much of this, but it's also probably a mistake to analyse 'venting' criticism that arises when these incidents happen as though it were ever intended to be an objective assessment of that isolated situation.

Except the conclusion is often that the player is not good enough, without much regard for the larger picture. Mistakes are made and the reaction is often ruthless.

Take TAA and Gomez. Both young players finding their way. Both liable to make mistakes.

Is it better to play them with the risk that learning on the job will be short term pain for long term gain? Or should they simply be dropped / shipped out on loan? Most appear to lean on the latter opinion I think.

[Red_Polo]

Except the conclusion is often that the player is not good enough, without much regard for the larger picture. Mistakes are made and the reaction is often ruthless.

Take TAA and Gomez. Both young players finding their way. Both liable to make mistakes.

Is it better to play them with the risk that learning on the job will be short term pain for long term gain? Or should they simply be dropped / shipped out on loan? Most appear to lean on the latter opinion I think.

Often players are not good enough though. It's hard to make it with us. I wouldn't say that those two have suffered the same criticism as Lovren, and it's precisely because they are seen as 'developing' players by many.

[Irishnev]

Everyone makes mistakes, some obviously make more than others, and some significantly more than others. Lovren is at the stage where a mistake like VVD's gets him called a cunt and a joke of a footballer, and VVD is at the stage where nobody mentions it and there's a conspiracy of silence to pretend it didn't happen. My main objection in discussions about our '**** footballers' is how extreme and polarised the conversation is and the lack of perspective. Our goalkeeping mistakes are emphasized disproportionately when compared to what is par for the course in the PL, I've seen Lloris make as many significant errors this season qs ours, but people would jizz themselves if we signed him as a replacement and certain people would claim the title was in the bag. Lovren has had up and down periods with us, but look at Utd's CBs, they're above us in the league.. would you take Phil Jones or Chris Smalling instead? Essentially we exaggerate the failings of our players relative to most of their peers.

VVD got very lucky with that error because big Chris missed it, with Lovren's luck Benteke would probably have buried it if he had made the error. The thing is Dejan has form with this type of thing and also form with bigging himself up after a few games without a glaring error. The club are as much to blame for continuously allowing him to do do interviews.

I agree we as fans are guilty of irrational opinions of players as you have highlighted but it's football and it makes people irrational! The Line should be drawn in personal insults and Dejan had had his fair share of that. In fairness to him he comes across as very mentally strong in his interviews and if he could channel that into his performances on the pitch he'd be some player!

[dom9]

Often players are not good enough though. It's hard to make it with us. I wouldn't say that those two have suffered the same criticism as Lovren, and it's precisely because they are seen as 'developing' players by many.

The criticisms are starting to mount though, to the point where some people want neither to start on Wednesday.

But you've got to play them to find out if they're good enough.

Jusy look at at Chelsea's recent record of letting players go. It can work both ways.

[Exiled_red]

I agree with much of this, but it's also probably a mistake to analyse 'venting' criticism that arises when these incidents happen as though it were ever intended to be an objective assessment of that isolated situation.

Except the conclusion is often that the player is not good enough, without much regard for the larger picture. Mistakes are made and the reaction is often ruthless.

Take TAA and Gomez. Both young players finding their way. Both liable to make mistakes.

Is it better to play them with the risk that learning on the job will be short term pain for long term gain? Or should they simply be dropped / shipped out on loan? Most appear to lean on the latter opinion I think.

Often players are not good enough though. It's hard to make it with us. I wouldn't say that those two have suffered the same criticism as Lovren, and it's precisely because they are seen as 'developing' players by many.

I think that a lot of people need to realise that you can highlight a player making a mistake, and you can criticise a player for making a mistake without slagging off the player, calling them crap etc. We shouldn't be only criticising players we dislike and let off the ones that we do. People shouldn't be dropped for making a single mistake, everyone does it. People should however be learning from their mistakes this will obviously be a more common occurrence for younger players, and we need to be more patient with them and I think by and large we are.

Gomez and TAA have made mistakes, but hopefully they will learn from these mistakes and it will make them better players in future, if they are unable or unwilling to learn from their mistakes then we have a problem. Lovren is a more experienced player and doesn't seem to be learning from them and is making the same mistakes over and over.