I'm still inclined to blame it on money - hear me out...

[Rosco]

Look mate, we debate this as much as you like - noel whites comments were in the paper, wether he retracted them or not doesn't make a blind bit of difference. We can't give him enough cash and it's as simple as that.

How much is enough?

If Rafa spent more than every manager except Mourinho,would that be enough ?

Is £80m in just over two years enough ?

[carheex]

Rafa has had enough money to create a consistent top 4 side. We are nowhere near that. Our performances against the 'Big 3 over the last 3 seasons have shown that we are pissing in the wind when it comes to the league. Something is fundamentally wrong and I'm not gonna start blaming the board when they have allowed Rafa to spend £6.8mil on Bellamy and £6.7millon on Pennant.

You're right - Rafa HAS had enough money to create a top 4 side, and that's exactly what he has done. AS we finished 3rd last year then he's obviously doing very well. Let's not forget, the season hasn't finished yet. We've had tough games early on and the likes of utd and arsenal with their much weaker squads, will have bad patches. Cannot believe Rafa is getting so much stick, even from the fickle fans that these boards tend to unearth.

[Red_Al_77]

You're right - Rafa HAS had enough money to create a top 4 side, and that's exactly what he has done. AS we finished 3rd last year then he's obviously doing very well. Let's not forget, the season hasn't finished yet. We've had tough games early on and the likes of utd and arsenal with their much weaker squads, will have bad patches. Cannot believe Rafa is getting so much stick, even from the fickle fans that these boards tend to unearth.

LOL ficke fans. Its called realism. If you really think we are a consistent top 4 side then that's up to you but have a look at our record against Arse, Manure, and Chelski in the league over the last 3 seasons. We are not competing. Tough game? I'm sick of this excuse. Sheff Utd? Everton? Bolton? Boro? Tough? Doesn't say much for us does it. Manure and Arse do no have much weaker squads. That is just plain rubbish.

[carheex]

LOL ficke fans. Its called realism. If you really think we are a consistent top 4 side then that's up to you but have a look at our record against Arse, Manure, and Chelski in the league over the last 3 seasons. We are not competing. Tough game? I'm sick of this excuse. Sheff Utd? Everton? Bolton? Boro? Tough? Doesn't say much for us does it. Manure and Arse do no have much weaker squads. That is just plain rubbish.

How can you argue that we aren't a top 4 side??? Our last league finish was 3rd and we normally finish around 4th. I'm not saying that's an achievement by any stretch of the imagination but it DOES make us a top 4 side.
With regards to the fickle fans comment (which wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, but of the cap fits...), you only have to read these forums for a few weeks to see how wildly peoples opinions can change based on a single result. We win a game and all of a sudden people talk about whether we'll finish 3rd or 4th - we lose a game and all of a sudden Rafa us clueless in the transfer market, Gerrard should go, and the club is a state of emergency!!

[Red_Al_77]

The table doesn't lie. We are 9th. Thus we aren't a top four side. Are you saying Everton are a top four side because they finished 4th the season before last? Anyway this is a ridiculous argument. I'm not interested in finishing 4th. 1st wins prizes. At the moment we can't even win away, let alone be a consistent top 4 side, let alone be PL champions.

[SouthAfricaRed]

Think about some major recent-ish signings....Heskey 10m, Diouf 12m, Cisse 14m, Diao 4.5m, Biscan 5.5m, Pennant 7m, Bellamy 6m, Gonzalez 4m, Leonhardsen 3.5m, Macateer 3.5m, cheyrou 4m, baros 4.5m..

Would you rather have a board that tells the manager who to buy like Newcastle has? Ged paid the price for buying the wrong players.

The board must always buy the players the manager wants, as long as they are within the budget given to him. They should NEVER be involved in deciding who he buys and doesnt. If it turns out to be the wrong player or wrong price the manager must shoulder the blame.

However, you cant judge a player after not even playing half a season. The time to judge Pennant, Bellamy and Gonzalez will be June 2007.

PS: Gonzalez cost 1.5 million not 4 million

[SouthAfricaRed]

Rafa's Buys

Josemi Rey Malaga £2,000,000 26.07.2004
Antonio Nunez Real Madrid £1,500,000* 17.08.2004
Luis Garcia Barcelona £6,000,000 20.08.2004
Xabi Alonso Real Sociedad £10,700,000 20.08.2004
Mauricio Pellegrino Valencia Free 05.01.2005
Fernando Morientes Real Madrid £6,300,000 13.01.2005
Scott Carson Leeds United £1,000,000 21.01.2005
Josh Mimms Rotherham United £50,000 16.06.2005
Antonio Barragan Sevilla £240,000 04.07.2005
Boudewijn Zenden Free Transfer Free* 04.07.2005
Jose Reina Villareal £6,000,000 04.07.2005
Mohamed Sissoko Valencia £5,600,000 14.07.2005
Peter Crouch Southampton £7,000,000 20.07.2005
Godwin Antwi Real Zaragoza Unknown 15.08.2005
Miguel Roque Lleida Unknown 15.08.2005
Jack Hobbs Lincoln City £150,000* 18.08.2005
Besian Idrizaj LASK Linz £190,000* 22.08.2005
Ramon Calliste Free Transfer Free* 29.08.2005
Mark Gonzalez Albacete £1,500,000* 20.10.2005
Paul Anderson Hull City Player Exchange* 01.01.2006
Jan Kromkamp Villareal Player Exchange* 04.01.2006
Daniel Agger Brøndby £5,800,000 12.01.2006
David Martin MK Dons £250,000* 12.01.2006
Robbie Fowler Man City Free 27.01.2006
Craig Bellamy Norwich £6,000,000 01.07.2006
Gabriel Paletta Club Atlético Banfield £2,000,000 04.07.2006
Fábio Aurélio Valencia Free 05.07.2006
Jermaine Pennant Birmingham £6,700,000 26.07.2006
Dirk Kuyt Feyenoord £9,000,000 18.08.2006
Nabil El Zhar St Etienne £200,000 21.08.2006

Rafael Benítez bought 30 players for £78,180,000

Rafa sold

Markus Babbel XXStuttgart Free 16.07.2004
Danny Murphy Charlton £2,500,000 10.08.2004
Michael Owen Real Madrid £8,500,000* 14.08.2004
Stephane Henchoz Celtic Free 28.01.2005
Vladimir Smicer Bordeaux Free 13.06.2005
El Hadji Diouf Bolton £3,500,000 15.06.2005
Mauricio Pellegrino Alaves Free* 17.06.2005
Alou Diarra Lens £2,000,000 23.06.2005
Mark Smyth Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
Paul Harrison Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
Richie Partridge Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
Patrice Luzi Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
Gregory Vignal Portsmouth Free* 01.07.2005
Igor Biscan Panathinaikos Free* 01.07.2005
Jon Otsemobor Rotherham United Free* 01.07.2005
Antonio Nunez Celta Vigo £2,000,000* 29.07.2005
Milan Baros Aston Villa £6,500,000 23.08.2005
John Welsh Hull City Player Exchange* 01.01.2006
Josemi Rey Villareal Player Exchange* 02.01.2006
Zak Whitbread Millwall £200,000 13.06.2006
Bruno Cheyrou Rennes Undisclosed 29.06.2006
Ramon Calliste Unknown Free* 01.07.2006
Robbie Foy Unknown Free* 01.07.2006
David Raven Carlisle £0* 03.07.2006
Fernando Morientes Valencia £3,000,000 05.07.2006
Dietmar Hamann Bolton Free 11.07.2006
Antonio Barragan Deportivo £675,000 03.08.2006
Djimi Traore Charlton £2,000,000 09.08.2006
Carl Medjani Lorient Free 12.08.2006
Neil Mellor Preston £500,000 30.08.2006
Jan Kromkamp PSV Eindhoven £1,750,000 31.08.2006
Chris Kirkland Wigan Ath. £3,500,000* 27.10.2006

Rafael Benítez sold 32 players for £36,625,000

That's a net spending of £42 million

He has also cut the crazy wage bill we had.

Our team now, though underperforming at present, is worth a lot more than when he took over

Rafa had no choice but to buy backup players to strengthen the squad first

Ask Newcastle about the wisdom of blowing your budget on one or two stars for the first team I'm sure they are very happy to have Owen in their team

[alunevans]

Look at all the clubs currently on the same points or higher as us. We can include Bolton, Everton, Reading, Wigan (if they get 1 pt from next 2 games).

How can their managers be doing as well or better than us if its down to money. Rafa unquestionably has had more resources to start with, and more resources since than any of those clubs.

So how can our position in the league be down to money?

[Redlife]

I think we were kidding ourselves with our finish to last season, thinking we were closer to overhauling the top two than we were, when in fact our squad needed a lot more work than we let on.


Rafa realized this. We needed pretty much a whole new strike force (only Crouch remains from last season - Robbie not included, as he was never going to be a regular starter), we needed left and right sided midfielders, new fullbacks as cover for Riise and Finnan, and we needed to start figuring out replacements/cover for Hyypia and Carra.


Fixing or building in cover for a defence is a tricky business. You'll nearly always try players who won't work out (Josemi, Krompkamp, and Aurelio - the last one undoubtedly a good player, but might not end up as adequate replacement for Riise). Every team has shipped defenders in and out trying to find a match-up that works.


I don't think anyone of our signings is as shocking as some people have made out, not yet anyway - although **** me if Pennant dribbles blindly into anymore defenders....:whatever: ! We'll know how good or bad they've been come the end of the season and whether Rafa keeps or rejects them.


In short, I'm as sick as anyone of always saying 'next season, we'll be up there next season', but the fact is that this will take Rafa time - and money. He was well-backed by the board in the summer, but they need to back him fully in a couple more transfer windows if we're really to make it.

[marcgerard]

Money helps, certainly, but we have been pretty fortunate over the last couple seasons to have done well with a squad that was/is lacking quality in a number of areas. The process of strengthening the squad, due to our financial position, has been slow; we still are not able to compete financially with Chelsea or Man Utd but we are much better off than the majority of the teams in the Premiership. The problem is that we have aims that are much higher than the majority of those teams, and so far this season we have fallen well short of those expectations.

We have had two very good seasons trophy wise but such prelonged seasons have had the affect of damaging the form of pretty much all of the spine of the team. This has made the newer players settling in more difficult, regardless of whether they are up to the standard or not. Players like Pennant and Bellamy seem to be struggling with the pressures of playing at a club like Liverpool but they have nt been helped by the form of the players inside and behind them. I would also say regarding Pennant we did pay over the odds, however if clubs know you are greatly in need of strengthening in a certain position then your valuation of the player becomes meaningless, if you need a player you will play over the odds and we were nt the only club to be stung that way over the summer.

Our league performances against Chelsea and Man Utd over the last two and a half seasons have shown we have a long way to go to be challenging these two teams consistently, but for all that we should be doing much better than we are. It was nt a lack of financial clout that was evident at Old Trafford or the Emirates this season but a stomach for the fight once we conceded the first goal.

Ferguson took seven years to get his first title and spent most of the first three or four seasons battling for his job. In order to get that first title he needed to overhaul a team that was capable of great cup runs but underperformed in the league. This sadly sounds rather familiar. I feel in order for us to be in a position to challenge will take at least another two seasons regardless of whether the new signings develop into players worthy of the club.