Spurs Away thread

[spud_gun]

I have a feeling that PGMOL will take the piss with the VAR recording that they release.

It'll be a relatively short recording cantered around the time the decision was made confirming the on field decision. There won't be anything of the aftermath.

PGMOL are and have been in damage limitation mode since the incident on Saturday. Their PA team have no doubt been working overtime.

PGMOL lackies and apologists all over the media these last couple of days pushing their own version of events whilst in turn trying to mitigate what was a horrific dereliction of duty by several of their employees.

[Exiled_red]

I’m surprised by some of the theorising and the surprise itself from fans.

It’s most likely just what they claim it to be, basic human error. The technology that enables VAR isn’t the problem in my opinion, but it’s not perfect because it still relies on human decision making behind it.

Referees are human and just as in every other industry, there have been some mighty **** ups that come from simple basic misunderstandings or wrong assumptions made on the fly when decision making.

It clearly ****ed Liverpool over in that game but overall the technology is likely a net positive. There are now many goals ruled out correctly for very slim margins that from the perspective of a human linesman in the past, would have been given.

You are right, the situation here was caused by human error, but for me the big questions are relating to was the correct protocol followed by the officials, there was an assistant VAR official there who was not consulted, was this because the VAR official bypassed the checks and safeguards or are there no checks and safeguards in place? One is negligence of an official, the other is the failure of the system, both require action but in different ways.

There is then the 2nd question as to whether the rules preventing the decision being reversed when the officials realised it was wrong is appropriate, it is a defence that everyone seems to be coming out with, it could have been put right 7 seconds later when VAR officials realise or 30 seconds later when the ball goes out of play. We know that the rules don't allow this, but what is more important sticking rigidly to the rules or getting the decision right? This comes back to a fundamental question about VAR is it there to get the right decisions or not because at the moment it doesn't look like it is. If they don't want the ref or VAR to make that call to rectify the decision maybe they need someone senior in PGMOL to be present and step in in such situations.

There is then the issue of communication and transparency, I find it hard to believe that the referee didn't know the decision was wrong until half time (if this is true this is back to VAR being there to protect officials rather than get the decisions right). Again the language being used to communicate the decision is not suitable 'check complete' is a large part of the problem. Again this would have been picked up immediately if conversations between VAR and the ref were broadcast and it would mean everyone involved would have better knowledge of the game and how the system worked. The final point on communication is the audio still hasn't been released, I don't really believe they would fabricate it but I would not be surprised if it were selectively edited, and I think that the delay in releasing it is because they want to make sure the information out there fits their narrative, and the longer it takes the more suspicious people will become.

[Alex]

Humans are human, which is why you design systems with human elements in a way that mitigates human error. Eg. If a surgeon requests a piece of equipment, the person handing it to them will repeat the name of the item as they hand it over instead of simply saying ‘here you go’. It makes them far more likely to identify an error before it becomes problematic. These kind of protocols exist in all walks of life. by design. Having the VAR say ‘check complete, on-field decision stands’ or such like is an example of poor system design as it opens the door for misunderstanding and miscommunication. The linesman flagging was human error, the failure of VAR was a systemic failure and ‘human error, mistakes happen’ is not an appropriate response. You analyse the reason for failure, identify and implement improvements as soon as you can to prevent future failure.

I dont understand why we cant have live audio of the Ref saying:

"I have not given that goal because the offside flag was raised, can you check I have made the correct decision"

A LOT of this VAR stuff seems to be to preserve EGO and that only the Ref on the field can control the game. But thats long gone now, Referees have a place and good ones should be elevated and held up as examples. But the bad ones are just being protected.

[Scratch]

They were going in if it weren't for Alisson's positioning and prowess. I don't think he could have made those saves in any other way.

Definitely going in, but for Alisson, those were run of the mill saves. Not the outstanding stuff he did in the previous league games. Against Spurs, he was rarely pushed to the limits, even when they had their 2-man advantage.

[Exiled_red]

I dont understand why we cant have live audio of the Ref saying:

"I have not given that goal because the offside flag was raised, can you check I have made the correct decision"

A LOT of this VAR stuff seems to be to preserve EGO and that only the Ref on the field can control the game. But thats long gone now, Referees have a place and good ones should be elevated and held up as examples. But the bad ones are just being protected.

That is certainly true but in claiming that the VAR didn't make the on field ref aware of the error until HT takes away his ability to do something about the situation is this VAR attempting to protect him? overstepping their mark or what?

If the ref is yo be the one in charge of the game he has to be told then he makes his call on how/whether to put it right. It seems though that they are hiding behind the rule, well once the game kicked off there was nothing that could be done. Either the official is in charge of the game or he isn't. Had the ref stopped the game 7 or 30 seconds later, called the managers and captains/players over it could have been sorted out either by giving the goal and going back to kick off restarting the game from there. VAR would have still got **** but the referee at least would have come out with some credit

[Pablo]

Still no audio released? Silence is deafening.

[RichC]

Working away on the explanation of why it went so wrong I would assume.

It stinks to be honest, clearly being managed by PR to cause the least amount of damage.

[Exiled_red]

Working away on the explanation of why it went so wrong I would assume.

It stinks to be honest, clearly being managed by PR to cause the least amount of damage.

Also the drip feeding of information, it was a human error, he didn't realise the goal wasn't given, the referee didn't know about the mistake to HT. Just release the audio

[Fosterbloke]

Pilots are very clear when passing control from one pilot to another "I have control".

It's clear and unambiguous. I think there needs to be changes to the language used during VAR conversations to only be affirmative -

If they're checking an offside, then the sequence could be -

VAR: The correct decision is a goal to Liverpool
Referee: Confirming the correct decision is a goal to Liverpool
VAR: Confirmed

Scoreboard - 1-0 Liverpool - Diaz

[Pablo]

Working away on the explanation of why it went so wrong I would assume.

It stinks to be honest, clearly being managed by PR to cause the least amount of damage.

Yep, clearly that is what is going on.

The purpose of a referee has long since been lost hasn't it? They have one job, make sure things play out fairly.

Instead it is now so corrupted that their priority is firmly focussed on protecting each other, instead of making sure they game plays out fairly. There have been many other examples, but this is the clearest. Pathetic.

[Exiled_red]

[ame="https://twitter.com/Vaibhav33564450/status/1708928162099306692"]https://twitter.com/Vaibhav33564450/status/1708928162099306692[/ame]

[RichC]

It certainly feels like it's being dragged out and hoping the furor towards this dies down a bit.

I'm sure they're also going to go down the "poor refs" have a hard time of it, it's difficult and they should be supported etc..

[Pablo]

The last "Soz" bit is inaccurate though as they never even apologised.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Working away on the explanation of why it went so wrong I would assume.

It stinks to be honest, clearly being managed by PR to cause the least amount of damage.

One from incompetence, bias or corruption. Maybe a combination of some or all.

Happens too often, and not just to us, for it to be the odd case of human error.


Chase and harry them for clear answers, and more importantly clearly defined resolutions/solutions with set time lines.


But at manager, player, coaching staff and fan level, this needs to feed our mettle. Don't see it as an excuse to say everyone is against us or what's the point of footy anymore and so on.

Use it as a way to go cold, go hot or whatever each person does when they find a bit of steel within. Let the eyes narrow and just go at every team.

Be fuelled by it and go win silverware in spite of the incompetence/bias/corruption.


And those at the matches use it to shout that bit louder, that bit longer so the lads and gaffer know they are being backed to the hilt.

A few PGMOL - INCOMPETENT OR CORRUPT??? banners of some size and dotted in all stands close to pitch level so cameras cannot avoid them.


**** goes against you you can roll over and bitch or you can go to war using whatever means are available to you.

For the club those means are to explore legal routes.

For the manager, coaching and players those means are what they do on the pitch and continuing to not let heads drop no mnatter how crap the so called officials are.


For supporters those means are being louder and more supportive at games, maybe add names to any worthwhile petitions on the topic, message or call various radio shows/podcasts or whatever.


All are better option than letting crap decisions by incompetent/biased/corrupt individuals and organisations affect your moods in a negative manner. Take the crap they are throwing out and chuck it right back at them.

Embrace your inner chimpanzee and fling that ****.

[Corndog]

Humans are human, which is why you design systems with human elements in a way that mitigates human error. Eg. If a surgeon requests a piece of equipment, the person handing it to them will repeat the name of the item as they hand it over instead of simply saying ‘here you go’. It makes them far more likely to identify an error before it becomes problematic. These kind of protocols exist in all walks of life. by design. Having the VAR say ‘check complete, on-field decision stands’ or such like is an example of poor system design as it opens the door for misunderstanding and miscommunication. The linesman flagging was human error, the failure of VAR was a systemic failure and ‘human error, mistakes happen’ is not an appropriate response. You analyse the reason for failure, identify and implement improvements as soon as you can to prevent future failure.

Well obviously, but no system is perfect. My point wasn’t that nothing can be learned from it, clearly they should change the wording of the statements so that even if a human is distracted or not paying attention, the communication of the decision is more explicit.

There should also be more flexibility allowed within the system to use common sense if such a communication mistake occurs again. The VAR should be able to say ‘there has been a misunderstanding, bring that back, it’s a goal’.