Florian Wirtz - Welcome to LFC

[danperkins]

A scapegoat is a person or group unfairly blamed for the misfortunes or wrongdoing of others, taking on unmerited blame and negative treatment.

Seems pretty apt when people were ignoring the fact that Grav was out, Mac unfit, Konate brutal, new full backs, new system, instead saying we were so open because they told us all along that Wirtz can't play AM for us.

Hardly a controversial statement.

How many people said that? I might have missed it but I certainly don't think it's a general consensus, even among the people that have said some negative things about Wirtz attacking performances thus far.

I got the impression that losing both fullbacks & having absences in the CM was in the first few games was a pretty obvious reason why we've looked shakey defensively & if anyone was being singled out that it was maybe you could point to Kerkez & Konate? I laughed not to insult but I was engaged in a back and forth about hyperbolic posts & imo saying Wirtz has been made a scapegoat for our defensive woes.. well it is certainly up there imo.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Mark3 was such a cool guy, this Mark79 fella

Not was, Mark3 is a cool guy.

One might go as far as to say that he is the most beloved Mark on the site.

[danperkins]

So what you are saying is that you are the evil person behind getting others to have jabs at poor defenceless little Perkins?

You really are a **** version of the lovely Mark3.

Mark3 was such a cool guy, this Mark79 fella

[danperkins]

You're conflating the genuine discourse over Wirtz with jabs at you. My examples weren't taken out of context nor cherry picked. As you say, we're in the Wirtz thread.

Those comments from just one post, you picked from the match thread and were in response to another poster.

He did some good things but his passing was dismal and he was bullied off the ball far to easily

This is so mild and kinda factual imo. You ignored the positive aspect at the start and didn't mention Kenneth was referring to his 'dismal passing', not him being dismal in general.

He's more of a liability than benefit still and he needs to improve soon or share his game time.

Again, this isn't a general comment about Wirtz either but more of what we have seen 'so far' since playing for LFC and unfortunately it is a 120m quid player that has 0 goals, 0 assists & is struggling with the physicality in games & we have Everton in the derby next which will literally be our most physical & demanding game of the season.

A little context makes it look a lot different. I gave you two hyperbolic responses from the actual thread & you gave me two words, with no context from another thread

[Doc_Piptorious]

You're conflating the genuine discourse over Wirtz with jabs at you. My examples weren't taken out of context nor cherry picked. As you say, we're in the Wirtz thread.

So what you are saying is that you are the evil person behind getting others to have jabs at poor defenceless little Perkins?

You really are a **** version of the lovely Mark3.

[Kenneth]

Don't forget, he didn't make any saves either.

His defensive stats almost identical to Mo, which is hardly surprising for two attacking playmakers.

He was playing in midfield though. Personally, I'd rather see him in Gakpo's spot.

[RedReet]

A scapegoat is a person or group unfairly blamed for the misfortunes or wrongdoing of others, taking on unmerited blame and negative treatment.

Seems pretty apt when people were ignoring the fact that Grav was out, Mac unfit, Konate brutal, new full backs, new system, instead saying we were so open because they told us all along that Wirtz can't play AM for us.

Hardly a controversial statement.

[Mark79]

they are all essentially in defence of Wirtz though aren't they. We are in the Wirtz thread & they are in response to what some people have said negatively about Wirtz. The two I pointed out are just hyperbolic nonsense & irrational in defence of Wirtz with a side of pokey pokey at me & I highlighted them as they were not balanced...... whatsoever.

I find cherry picking two words from one persons post and using them to bolster your argument without context also, a little disingenuous. We'll have to agree to disagree mate

You're conflating the genuine discourse over Wirtz with jabs at you. My examples weren't taken out of context nor cherry picked. As you say, we're in the Wirtz thread.

[danperkins]

Scapegoat

[RedReet]

The criticism in the post isn't mild imo, it's overblown. I'm not sure what the relevance is of both examples being from one post?

I didn't say all posts were balanced at all. I said the posts in defence of Wirtz were.

I just find the underplaying of one argument while making the counter argument out to be 'outrage' a little disingenuous.

Flo being made scapegoat for all our defensive woes first few games and the multiple 'told you it would never work' comments from the very first game didn't seem particularly balanced to me.

[danperkins]

The criticism in the post isn't mild imo, it's overblown. I'm not sure what the relevance is of both examples being from one post?

I didn't say all posts were balanced at all. I said the posts in defence of Wirtz were.

I just find the underplaying of one argument while making the counter argument out to be 'outrage' a little disingenuous.

they are all essentially in defence of Wirtz though aren't they. We are in the Wirtz thread & they are in response to what some people have said negatively about Wirtz. The two I pointed out are just hyperbolic nonsense & irrational in defence of Wirtz with a side of pokey pokey at me & I highlighted them as they were not balanced...... whatsoever.

I find cherry picking two words from one persons post and using them to bolster your argument without context also, a little disingenuous. We'll have to agree to disagree mate

[RedReet]

Nobody is writing the guy off. He's clearly an extremely skillful and talented player with enormous potential.

Our midfield three of Grav, Szlobo and Macallister won us the league, had great chemistry. We've not played that trio this season for a few reasons, right back injuries requiring Szlobo to play there, Macallister not being fully fit, and Wirtz being accommodated. But all of them are fit now and I reckon last year's midfield three is still our strongest three. If we force Wirtz into the side it is currently to our detriment, imho, and that's what the 'liability' comment means. And as the team isn't quite clicking, I'd play him from the bench for a few games and see how that goes.



Some more then:

Crosses 3 (accurate 0)
Ground duels 9 (won 3)
Aerial duels 1 (won 0)
Possession lost 13
Interceptions 0
Tackles 0

There's a lot to work on, particularly without the ball.

Don't forget, he didn't make any saves either.

His defensive stats almost identical to Mo, which is hardly surprising for two attacking playmakers.

[Mark79]

I have given him nothing but mild critiques. The two 'hyperbolic' critiques you mention (not from me) are from one post and lacked context.



Completely mild stuff, not writing him off whatsoever, nothing crazy or extreme. I gave you 'actual' extreme reactionary posts aimed at me to my nothings in this thread. You said they were all balanced... just sayin.

People can go a bit wild in the footie forums

The criticism in the post isn't mild imo, it's overblown. I'm not sure what the relevance is of both examples being from one post?

I didn't say all posts were balanced at all. I said the posts in defence of Wirtz were.

I just find the underplaying of one argument while making the counter argument out to be 'outrage' a little disingenuous.

[memzey]

Id like to see him get more ball around the box and better if he’s facing towards goal or on the half turn already.

Agreed.

Nobody is writing the guy off. He's clearly an extremely skillful and talented player with enormous potential.

Our midfield three of Grav, Szlobo and Macallister won us the league, had great chemistry. We've not played that trio this season for a few reasons, right back injuries requiring Szlobo to play there, Macallister not being fully fit, and Wirtz being accommodated. But all of them are fit now and I reckon last year's midfield three is still our strongest three. If we force Wirtz into the side it is currently to our detriment, imho, and that's what the 'liability' comment means. And as the team isn't quite clicking, I'd play him from the bench for a few games and see how that goes.

Agreed. We must think that the potential is there for a midfield with Wirtz to have a higher ceiling than one without but that reality has yet to present itself. We seem to be edging closer to it though, game by game.

[danperkins]

Id like to see him get more ball around the box and better if he’s facing towards goal or on the half turn already.

yeah he has a lovely strike of a ball and is so good technically, you'd like to see him in the danger areas a bit more. I think we are still tweaking things and the balance isn't quite right up top yet & now with Isak coming in that's more changes. We've all got to be happy with 5 wins from 5 with the tough fixtures we've had & with so much upheaval, even if we aren't playing great.