Lucas

[Norbs]

[Scratch]

Lucas...good against teams where we want to sit back and counter (eg Arsenal) but too slow against teams that will look hit us on the counter. Not a starter in every game for me.

[The_weatherman]

i would like to see a list of these "lesser teams"

Watford

[baitman]

Yeah I was under the impression West Ham beat Arsenal comprehensively already too. I think we need to start showing these "lesser sides" a bit more respect.

Games vs the likes of Southampton, Swansea, West Ham, Stoke etc especially away from home have become very difficult.
The league is more unpredictable than ever.

its probably even harder to beat these teams when they play away as they dont push forward and often are tighter and more compact at the back. the onus is then on us to go at them and break them down, leaving us wide open for a swift counter attack.

brendan used to blab about death by football. if we have enough possession we are bound to win to majority of our games.
now he flip flops and says we need to be winning without the ball [or some similar soundbite]. this is very true, but when the opposition get 37% possession with only 18% in our half but still manage to beat us 3-0.

[Exiled_red]

I don't think it is a question or respect as to whether we play a DM or not. I think it is about picking a team that will take into account the way the opposition play and will give us the best chance of getting a result, that approach will have differences from side to side - you would play a different way against Man City to Chelsea, Man Utd to Everton, and Arsenal to West Ham etc.

Our approach against West Ham was very different from our approach against Arsenal despite it being the same side. While you could clearly see that we had thought about the Arsenal game in detail, the approach to West Ham seemed to be play the same side but push everyone a few yards further up the pitch and do whatever they want. There was IMO no way that the same level of tactical thought went into the preparation for both games. I find this particularly frustrating because in preparing for Arsenal we must have watched the way West Ham played against them, but it seems that in our preparation for the West Ham game it never seemed to occur to us that they might play in a similar way to how they did against Arsenal. I think I find this as if not more frustrating than the individual errors that led to West Ham's goals.

[danperkins]

Yeah I was under the impression West Ham beat Arsenal comprehensively already too. I think we need to start showing these "lesser sides" a bit more respect. The premier league is not best league in the world in terms of football but it is certainly the most competitive league. With this TV money the so called lesser teams with smart recruitment and a bigger cashflow than they've ever had, and have been able to get players that they never would have been able to get before.

Games vs the likes of Southampton, Swansea, West Ham, Stoke etc especially away from home have become very difficult. There was absolutely nothing wrong with playing Lucas vs West Ham. Apart from him being not fit, we did not have one single player that actually performed well on the day & the manager royally ****ed up his tactics. I would like to think this was an anomaly but the Stoke mauling is still fresh in the memory. The league is more unpredictable than ever.

[baitman]

i would like to see a list of these "lesser teams"

[DannyMan2006]

Its a misconception to think there are 'lesser sides' as these lower ranked teams still score against us and often do well enough to make us look like the lesser side.
stoke, palace, bournemouth, Southampton, etc.
some of these teams might be more likely to sit back and be hard to play through but they will still look to hit us on the break once we over commit going forward.

our tactics are naive in the extreme as even playing lucas he was pushed so far foward he was useless to assist in holding in front of the cb's when west ham countered.
even the centre backs were on the half way line, and then ran BACKWARDS all the way to our goal area before deciding to make a challenge.

Even at home, even against teams that usually finish lower, we still need a dm (and more tactical awareness) to allow the rest of our midfield to push on.

It's not a misconception, there are lesser sides and as such with the odd exception, most teams place can be roughly guessed at the start of each season.

Had we treated West Ham like Arsenal away I'm pretty confident we'd have the basis of a solid nil nil. West Ham don't have the tools like Arsenal do to carve us up.

The difference is at home against West Ham we will force the play much more, have more possession and generally play much further up. If we misplace a simple pass it leaves our players out of position and with Can & Lucas in there a lack of dynamism to get back quickly to close down. Not to mention Lovren & Skrtel who lack pace themselves.

West Ham aren't particularly good, i think the one thing this season is quite a few of the average teams have some quality players who will hurt you if given space and freedom.

[baitman]

Its a misconception to think there are 'lesser sides' as these lower ranked teams still score against us and often do well enough to make us look like the lesser side.
stoke, palace, bournemouth, Southampton, etc.
some of these teams might be more likely to sit back and be hard to play through but they will still look to hit us on the break once we over commit going forward.

our tactics are naive in the extreme as even playing lucas he was pushed so far foward he was useless to assist in holding in front of the cb's when west ham countered.
even the centre backs were on the half way line, and then ran BACKWARDS all the way to our goal area before deciding to make a challenge.

Even at home, even against teams that usually finish lower, we still need a dm (and more tactical awareness) to allow the rest of our midfield to push on.

[Exiled_red]

That's not hindsight tbh, that's obvious. I expect fans to be blinded by the display against Arsenal and demand a similar line up, I don't expect that from our coaching set up.

Against lesser sides we have to get after them and Lucas isnt the man for the job. More down to his legs as much as ability.

It should be obvious that you don't play the same tactics at home to West Ham as away to Arsenal.

Lucas or his role is certainly required away at the big sides, there may be an agruement to play him in most away games and possibly at home to the big sides. The tactics should be considered on a game by game basis, which is something we don't seem capable of doing effectively.

It seems obvious that we adapt our tactics for the big teams - you could see that for the Arsenal work we had done our homework, the same level of thought obviously hadn't gone into the West Ham game. I find this particularly odd given that we much have watched how West Ham played against Arsenal in preparation for the Arsenal game surely we must have expected them to play a similar way against us, yet we didn't seem prepared for it.

[DannyMan2006]

Here's where I think Rodgers has changed for the worse, in his first 2 seasons he would have left Lucas out for today's game on the basis that home to West Ham he doesn't need a dedicated defensive midfielder, he'd have had the bollocks to change the side from Arsenal because he's have recognised that West Ham at home is obviously vastly different to Arsenal away.

Consequently Lucas is asked to play 10-15 yards higher than he's comfortable and he gets found out (again)
Lucas is a horses for courses player, a needs must player.

Not a starter every week.

Hindsight is wonderful but Coutinho/Firmino deeper with Milner or Can being the deep lying play maker with Ings/Ibe/Origi closer to Benteke would have been much better

That's not hindsight tbh, that's obvious. I expect fans to be blinded by the display against Arsenal and demand a similar line up, I don't expect that from our coaching set up.

Against lesser sides we have to get after them and Lucas isnt the man for the job. More down to his legs as much as ability.

[Exiled_red]

I agree too - like I said the other day he'd play almost every away game for me, but in home games we can afford to be more adventurous. Just looked a confused set up yesterday.

[Shaggy]

I agree too - like I said the other day he'd play almost every away game for me, but in home games we can afford to be more adventurous. Just looked a confused set up yesterday.

[Chazza]

Here's where I think Rodgers has changed for the worse, in his first 2 seasons he would have left Lucas out for today's game on the basis that home to West Ham he doesn't need a dedicated defensive midfielder, he'd have had the bollocks to change the side from Arsenal because he's have recognised that West Ham at home is obviously vastly different to Arsenal away.

Consequently Lucas is asked to play 10-15 yards higher than he's comfortable and he gets found out (again)
Lucas is a horses for courses player, a needs must player.

Not a starter every week.

Hindsight is wonderful but Coutinho/Firmino deeper with Milner or Can being the deep lying play maker with Ings/Ibe/Origi closer to Benteke would have been much better

Totally agree.

Only a few games at home should he be needed to start, yesterday we could have gone with a diamond where can or Milner play at the base and then phil sits behind Benteke and Ings/Origi

[danperkins]

Managers fault again? Perhaps Lucas just isn't up to it these days and like Gerrard its time to let him go. He's too ****ing slow. His body is knackered.

He is not fit, simple as that. Yesterday he had a ****e game, against Arsenal in the first half he was brilliant and tired in the second. The only problem yesterday was that unfortunately aswell as Lucas playing ****e... everyone else did aswell.