Naby Keita

[baitman]

Genuine question, in the 49 games he has played for us, is there any game that he has played for LFC where he has really stood out and had a blinder? I really can't remember any, I can see him being sold in the summer if he doesn't have a drastic change in form. Thus far for the price tag, a hugely disappointing signing. £52.75m quid!

He has had a few games where he has looked like the player we were supposed to be signing, maybe one motm performance and a handful of decent games too.

But as a £50m+ player he has been a monumental flop.

[Fredo]

Naby Keita

He hasn’t played to his level due to injuries, mostly muscle related. He’s not the first player who hasn’t lived up to his potential and it’s no surprise if he cannot play consistently. He’s arguably one of the most technically gifted midfielders we have. It’s not his fault if he’s consistently injured and I’d put our medical department at fault as well for not helping him get over his muscle injuries in managing him better. It’s a shame.

It’s also boring seeing this thread popping up as soon as he has had an underwhelming game. Last night was his first game back after injury and it’s a bit odd and boring this gets picked up once again considering it was obvious he wouldn’t shine in a team full of youngsters and non experienced players.

[Irishnev]

I think Curtis Jones has bypassed 50m Naby Keita in the pecking order for me.

If and when everyone is fit, then we have the following to play midfield:

Thiago
Henderson
Fabinho
Wjinaldum
Jones
Milner
Oxlade
Keita

I'd make him 8th choice central midfielder. The fact that his national team would also play him if he had 2 broken legs means for me, we should sell him and buy someone else next summer.

I’m a huge Naby fan and my bias doesn’t allow me be as disappointed as others but I can’t deny he has been underwhelming. Injuries and system have curbed a lot of what we thought we were getting. Here’s where I open myself to ridicule because the eyes don’t lie but........his stats for XG chain, pressing and others are off the charts when he has a run of games.....but he doesn’t play runs of games!

Curtis is amazing - he seems to have taken to it like a duck to water. We have to be careful to manage his load because we don’t want to overplay him and break him like we have done in the past. His statistical profile is unbelievable as an all round midfielder and if he sustains this we have an absolute star on our hands

[Norbs]

Better than having Cheyrou as 8th choice

Cheyrou was about 4th choice as well which makes it even more impressive

[RedReet]

Genuine question, in the 49 games he has played for us, is there any game that he has played for LFC where he has really stood out and had a blinder? I really can't remember any, I can see him being sold in the summer if he doesn't have a drastic change in form. Thus far for the price tag, a hugely disappointing signing. £52.75m quid!

Dan, you mention his price tag every second post, let it go. Right now it doesn't matter if he cost £50m or £5m, all that matters is if he's good enough to do a job on the pitch when fit as our squad is stretched to it's limits.

My memory is ****, so I can't pinpoint any standout games, but I can think of some excellent team performances that he's contributed to such as Leicester, Chelsea and Arsenal this year.

A twist on your question, in the 49 times he's played for us, do you think every time, "we're ****ed, Naby is playing"? I certainly don't. So if he is worth a place in the squad and can put a shift in when called upon, however infrequent it may be, is it worth saying after every 2nd performance, "£50m flop, sell" (paraphrasing multiple posters here, not just you)?

There is every chance he will be gone at the end of the season, but it won't be because we spent £50m on him or because he isn't the player Liverpool supporters hoped he would be, so I do think some people need to let it go.

[danperkins]

Dan, you mention his price tag every second post, let it go. Right now it doesn't matter if he cost £50m or £5m, all that matters is if he's good enough to do a job on the pitch when fit as our squad is stretched to it's limits.

My memory is ****, so I can't pinpoint any standout games, but I can think of some excellent team performances that he's contributed to such as Leicester, Chelsea and Arsenal this year.

A twist on your question, in the 49 times he's played for us, do you think every time, "we're ****ed, Naby is playing"? I certainly don't. So if he is worth a place in the squad and can put a shift in when called upon, however infrequent it may be, is it worth saying after every 2nd performance, "£50m flop, sell" (paraphrasing multiple posters here, not just you)?

There is every chance he will be gone at the end of the season, but it won't be because we spent £50m on him or because he isn't the player Liverpool supporters hoped he would be, so I do think some people need to let it go.

I mention the price tag because you cannot ignore it and he hasn't justified anywhere near it. If we sell I can't see us recouping it, whereas we would with the likes of Minamino as it was a small outlay. We aren't flush likes of City, United, PSG etc. We usually have to sell to buy in most windows, so it is important that we get our big spends right and we usually do to be fair. If we don't get it right and end up selling a player that cost 50 odd million for half that, that could be the difference between us not getting a main target player in another transfer window. Those margins are finer than ever after a covid year and with our injury list every penny counts.

I expected him to be more than just a cog, he's a lovely footballer no question but looking at Leipzig Naby vs LFC Naby is like looking at two different players. The drive and aggression he showed for Leipzig seems to have disappeared. Yes he's probably playing a more disciplined tactical role & yes he has been injured alot but at the end of the day it's all about what is best for the club. He probably is considered a flop so far regardless of circumstance and there is no way imo we will persist with a 50m player on £120k pw as a bench warmer if he has slipped down the pecking order. Likes of Curtis Jones who is 19 and on a tiny wage in comparison represents much been value than Naby currently. You could argue Naby has slipped right down the pecking order but Klopp will give him chances to change that.

IMO the club works off value for money, it seems a really important aspect in the way we do business. If Naby goes, it will be because he wasn't good enough and did not represent value for money regards to performance/appearances/wages. Sell him, get as much as we can back and invest it in someone else that represents value for money. Anyways, good to have him back as we need bodies and I would love for him to push on and show us the player we thought he was going to be & we need players firing on all cylinders now more than ever.

[RedReet]

I mention the price tag because you cannot ignore it and he hasn't justified anywhere near it. If we sell I can't see us recouping it, whereas we would with the likes of Minamino as it was a small outlay. We aren't flush likes of City, United, PSG etc. We usually have to sell to buy in most windows, so it is important that we get our big spends right and we usually do to be fair. If we don't get it right and end up selling a player that cost 50 odd million for half that, that could be the difference between us not getting a main target player in another transfer window. Those margins are finer than ever after a covid year and with our injury list every penny counts.

I expected him to be more than just a cog, he's a lovely footballer no question but looking at Leipzig Naby vs LFC Naby is like looking at two different players. The drive and aggression he showed for Leipzig seems to have disappeared. Yes he's probably playing a more disciplined tactical role & yes he has been injured alot but at the end of the day it's all about what is best for the club. He probably is considered a flop so far regardless of circumstance and there is no way imo we will persist with a 50m player on £120k pw as a bench warmer if he has slipped down the pecking order. Likes of Curtis Jones who is 19 and on a tiny wage in comparison represents much been value than Naby currently. You could argue Naby has slipped right down the pecking order but Klopp will give him chances to change that.

IMO the club works off value for money, it seems a really important aspect in the way we do business. If Naby goes, it will be because he wasn't good enough and did not represent value for money regards to performance/appearances/wages. Sell him, get as much as we can back and invest it in someone else that represents value for money. Anyways, good to have him back as we need bodies and I would love for him to push on and show us the player we thought he was going to be & we need players firing on all cylinders now more than ever.

Naby was brought in to transform our midfield. Him and Fekir were expected to add the creativity and drive to break teams down, which we struggled with the year before. That was 3 years ago, Klopp found other solutions in the form of Trent and Robbo and a style of play that doesn't necessary need that creativity in midfield (against 90% of teams). It would be great if Naby could rediscover his Leipzeg form, but it's looking less and less likely, primarily because of injuries. That doesn't mean he can't contribute though.

Your criticism (for want of a better word) of him only being a cog is part of what I mean. Week in, week out we get steady 6 or 7 out of 10 performances from Gini, he does his job well. If Keita does the same, often you see "expect more from a £50m signing". We need to let that expectation go. If Keita could stay fit and become a bog standard cog, then it's £50m well spent IMO. We don't need him to be a match winner every week or that star player that you might expect for £50m, so to continually criticise him for not being that player seems a bit pointless IMO. The team has evolved, so should fans expectations.

People can criticise his injury record, argue that we have better options in the team, reason that we could sell him for £20m and improve the team by signing some player most of us haven't heard of, but don't keep saying that he's not good enough because we spent £50m on him and he isn't the same player we seen at Leipzeg. The 2017 team needed that player, the 2020 team doesn't, particularly in the current climate when any fit player who can hold their own against top opposition should be considered a valuable asset.

[greenturnip]

IMO the club works off value for money, it seems a really important aspect in the way we do business.

I think this is right. That's why we will let Gini go for nowt next summer - because £25M for him and what he has given us, in arguably his peak years, was outstanding value for money. Naby has not delivered like that, so we will need to recoup as much as possible of that £50M outlay. There will be no 'free' for Naby...

[Irishnev]

Naby was brought in to transform our midfield. Him and Fekir were expected to add the creativity and drive to break teams down, which we struggled with the year before. That was 3 years ago, Klopp found other solutions in the form of Trent and Robbo and a style of play that doesn't necessary need that creativity in midfield (against 90% of teams). It would be great if Naby could rediscover his Leipzeg form, but it's looking less and less likely, primarily because of injuries. That doesn't mean he can't contribute though.

Your criticism (for want of a better word) of him only being a cog is part of what I mean. Week in, week out we get steady 6 or 7 out of 10 performances from Gini, he does his job well. If Keita does the same, often you see "expect more from a £50m signing". We need to let that expectation go. If Keita could stay fit and become a bog standard cog, then it's £50m well spent IMO. We don't need him to be a match winner every week or that star player that you might expect for £50m, so to continually criticise him for not being that player seems a bit pointless IMO. The team has evolved, so should fans expectations.

People can criticise his injury record, argue that we have better options in the team, reason that we could sell him for £20m and improve the team by signing some player most of us haven't heard of, but don't keep saying that he's not good enough because we spent £50m on him and he isn't the same player we seen at Leipzeg. The 2017 team needed that player, the 2020 team doesn't, particularly in the current climate when any fit player who can hold their own against top opposition should be considered a valuable asset.

Excellent post

[danperkins]

Naby was brought in to transform our midfield. Him and Fekir were expected to add the creativity and drive to break teams down, which we struggled with the year before. That was 3 years ago, Klopp found other solutions in the form of Trent and Robbo and a style of play that doesn't necessary need that creativity in midfield (against 90% of teams). It would be great if Naby could rediscover his Leipzeg form, but it's looking less and less likely, primarily because of injuries. That doesn't mean he can't contribute though.

Your criticism (for want of a better word) of him only being a cog is part of what I mean. Week in, week out we get steady 6 or 7 out of 10 performances from Gini, he does his job well. If Keita does the same, often you see "expect more from a £50m signing". We need to let that expectation go. If Keita could stay fit and become a bog standard cog, then it's £50m well spent IMO. We don't need him to be a match winner every week or that star player that you might expect for £50m, so to continually criticise him for not being that player seems a bit pointless IMO. The team has evolved, so should fans expectations.

People can criticise his injury record, argue that we have better options in the team, reason that we could sell him for £20m and improve the team by signing some player most of us haven't heard of, but don't keep saying that he's not good enough because we spent £50m on him and he isn't the same player we seen at Leipzeg. The 2017 team needed that player, the 2020 team doesn't, particularly in the current climate when any fit player who can hold their own against top opposition should be considered a valuable asset.

Some fair points, others not so much. I agree he was bought for a specific purpose & that has not worked out for various reasons but I never said he couldn't contribute, whether or not he can contribute enough to justify 120k pw is a different story. Like I said he's a lovely footballer on times but there is no way he'll be at LFC long term if this trend continues, no value for money. He is polar opposite to Gini who imo is one of the most under rated CM's in the world and certainly not a 6 or 7 out of 10 per week and doing it at the highest level for years & also rarely injured. Tried and tested, proven world class CM.

Keita has not been good enough performance wise & seemingly cannot be relied upon body wise, again he is also on 120k pw. We are simply not getting value for money out of him currently which I think is a very valid point and something that you would expect any well run business to look at. 'If' he could stay fit, 'If' he done as well as Gini but he cannot stay fit & he doesn't perform aswell as Gini. I don't expect more from a 50m signing, I expect more from Keita who we happened to pay 50m for. You buy premium and you expect premium performances. We didn't spend that money for just another body, we spent it for a dynamic centre midfielder to transform our midfield not just make up the numbers.

Football is a ruthless business and our club is run like a well oiled machine who are competing in a playing field that is certainly not level, hence us having is be shrewd in our buys, especially the marquee buys. The team has evolved absolutely but if Keita isn't pulling his weight, or constantly injured he is not an asset for LFC, he is a liability and a costly one at that. If it is not working out and we can recoup from the initial fee, then we will like any club who do not want to be taking a massive loss on a player they purchased. Currently being just another body will do during this injury crisis but that will only get him so far when players get back fit.

[rudedog]

Naby was brought in to transform our midfield. Him and Fekir were expected to add the creativity and drive to break teams down, which we struggled with the year before. That was 3 years ago, Klopp found other solutions in the form of Trent and Robbo and a style of play that doesn't necessary need that creativity in midfield (against 90% of teams). It would be great if Naby could rediscover his Leipzeg form, but it's looking less and less likely, primarily because of injuries. That doesn't mean he can't contribute though.

Your criticism (for want of a better word) of him only being a cog is part of what I mean. Week in, week out we get steady 6 or 7 out of 10 performances from Gini, he does his job well. If Keita does the same, often you see "expect more from a £50m signing". We need to let that expectation go. If Keita could stay fit and become a bog standard cog, then it's £50m well spent IMO. We don't need him to be a match winner every week or that star player that you might expect for £50m, so to continually criticise him for not being that player seems a bit pointless IMO. The team has evolved, so should fans expectations.

People can criticise his injury record, argue that we have better options in the team, reason that we could sell him for £20m and improve the team by signing some player most of us haven't heard of, but don't keep saying that he's not good enough because we spent £50m on him and he isn't the same player we seen at Leipzeg. The 2017 team needed that player, the 2020 team doesn't, particularly in the current climate when any fit player who can hold their own against top opposition should be considered a valuable asset.

Very well put

[RedReet]

Some fair points, others not so much. I agree he was bought for a specific purpose & that has not worked out for various reasons but I never said he couldn't contribute, whether or not he can contribute enough to justify 120k pw is a different story. Like I said he's a lovely footballer on times but there is no way he'll be at LFC long term if this trend continues, no value for money. He is polar opposite to Gini who imo is one of the most under rated CM's in the world and certainly not a 6 or 7 out of 10 per week and doing it at the highest level for years & also rarely injured. Tried and tested, proven world class CM.

Keita has not been good enough performance wise & seemingly cannot be relied upon body wise, again he is also on 120k pw. We are simply not getting value for money out of him currently which I think is a very valid point and something that you would expect any well run business to look at. 'If' he could stay fit, 'If' he done as well as Gini but he cannot stay fit & he doesn't perform aswell as Gini. I don't expect more from a 50m signing, I expect more from Keita who we happened to pay 50m for. You buy premium and you expect premium performances. We didn't spend that money for just another body, we spent it for a dynamic centre midfielder to transform our midfield not just make up the numbers.

Football is a ruthless business and our club is run like a well oiled machine who are competing in a playing field that is certainly not level, hence us having is be shrewd in our buys, especially the marquee buys. The team has evolved absolutely but if Keita isn't pulling his weight, or constantly injured he is not an asset for LFC, he is a liability and a costly one at that. If it is not working out and we can recoup from the initial fee, then we will like any club who do not want to be taking a massive loss on a player they purchased. Currently being just another body will do during this injury crisis but that will only get him so far when players get back fit.

I intentionally veered away from the value for money discussion, as it wasn’t relevant to the point I was making. I was highlighting that his initial cost, or indeed if he was value for money, should have no bearing when analysing his match performance, but it often comes up post match, or even in the build-up. Continually bringing this up I feel creates an unhelpful expectation, whether intentional or not, that the player will rarely live up to. Even in this discussion you asked how often he’s had a ‘blinder’ and mentioned that being a cog if ‘not good enough’, which is a common theme with Naby. It also brings back memories of the long, drawn out arguments over players like Lucas and Kuyt, deemed not good enough as one was a failed B2B midfielder and the other a failed CF, many refused to accept their value to the team as they weren’t seeing the players they hoped we’d signed.

I was purposely harsh scoring Gini, as I thought that would get less of response than suggesting Naby has been putting in 8 or 9 performances. Scores mean nothing, my point was more that a lot of Gini’s best work goes unnoticed, most of it off the ball. Due to his reputation, Naby isn’t afforded this luxury of going unnoticed, he has to stand out (“how often has he had a blinder”?), so I don’t feel we are comparing fairly. Personally, I think Jones’ performances this year have been very similar to how Naby finished last season and started this, quietly effective. I'm glad he's getting the recognition he deserves.

Although I said value for money, isn’t relevant to my point, I can’t ignore your repeated point. I agree that Naby hasn’t been value for money, but unless we can buy a time machine and go sign another player, we are unlikely to get value for money out for him at this stage. The money is spent; we need to let it go. Cutting our losses and selling at a loss is also not value for money, even if it may be our best option. From a purely financial perspective, I think our best chance of maximising value from our investment at this stage would be to concentrate on keeping him fit, so the years of training we have invested time and money into doesn’t go to waste. (Also don’t think £120k is unusual for a squad player these days) Unfortunately, the reality is that he most likely won’t stay fit and will be gone.

Hypothetically though, if Gini could stay fit and continue his end of season form last year, I think he’s worth keeping. I don’t care that they weren’t MOTM performances and I don’t care that he cost £50m or that he was much better for Leipzeg, I still think he’s a good player. I’d be happy with an unassuming cog.

[Exiled_red]

I intentionally veered away from the value for money discussion, as it wasn’t relevant to the point I was making. I was highlighting that his initial cost, or indeed if he was value for money, should have no bearing when analysing his match performance, but it often comes up post match, or even in the build-up. Continually bringing this up I feel creates an unhelpful expectation, whether intentional or not, that the player will rarely live up to. Even in this discussion you asked how often he’s had a ‘blinder’ and mentioned that being a cog if ‘not good enough’, which is a common theme with Naby. It also brings back memories of the long, drawn out arguments over players like Lucas and Kuyt, deemed not good enough as one was a failed B2B midfielder and the other a failed CF, many refused to accept their value to the team as they weren’t seeing the players they hoped we’d signed.

I was purposely harsh scoring Gini, as I thought that would get less of response than suggesting Naby has been putting in 8 or 9 performances. Scores mean nothing, my point was more that a lot of Gini’s best work goes unnoticed, most of it off the ball. Due to his reputation, Naby isn’t afforded this luxury of going unnoticed, he has to stand out (“how often has he had a blinder”?), so I don’t feel we are comparing fairly. Personally, I think Jones’ performances this year have been very similar to how Naby finished last season and started this, quietly effective. I'm glad he's getting the recognition he deserves.

Although I said value for money, isn’t relevant to my point, I can’t ignore your repeated point. I agree that Naby hasn’t been value for money, but unless we can buy a time machine and go sign another player, we are unlikely to get value for money out for him at this stage. The money is spent; we need to let it go. Cutting our losses and selling at a loss is also not value for money, even if it may be our best option. From a purely financial perspective, I think our best chance of maximising value from our investment at this stage would be to concentrate on keeping him fit, so the years of training we have invested time and money into doesn’t go to waste. (Also don’t think £120k is unusual for a squad player these days) Unfortunately, the reality is that he most likely won’t stay fit and will be gone.

Hypothetically though, if Gini could stay fit and continue his end of season form last year, I think he’s worth keeping. I don’t care that they weren’t MOTM performances and I don’t care that he cost £50m or that he was much better for Leipzeg, I still think he’s a good player. I’d be happy with an unassuming cog.

I think that there are alot of good points in there, the comparisons with Wijnaldum and Jones especially. While people might ask how many blinders Naby has played as you say that is not really asked of Wijnaldum. Gini puts in alot of good performances that go under the radar and I think alot of us have perhaps underappreciated him until recently when there has been talk of him leaving. Naby I don't think has put in many bad/shocking performances either IMO. I think that there is an inherent bias with football fans and transfer fees we tend to look at everyone in terms of what we paid for them and compare performances that way. A £50m player is going to get more stick for consistently putting in 7/10 performances than a £20m player or someone who came through the youth system. And even if they post good numbers they don't get a huge amount of credit because you expect a £50m player to put in those types of performances.

If Naby could put in the types of performances we saw at the end of last season then he's a very good player and is getting a place in our side where there is a lot of competition from a lot of other good players. Even if he isn't at that level he is still in contention, so he's not a bad player. The biggest problem with him IMO is the injuries he isn't going to show his best form until we can get him fit and keep him fit.

[RedReet]

I think that there are alot of good points in there, the comparisons with Wijnaldum and Jones especially. While people might ask how many blinders Naby has played as you say that is not really asked of Wijnaldum. Gini puts in alot of good performances that go under the radar and I think alot of us have perhaps underappreciated him until recently when there has been talk of him leaving. Naby I don't think has put in many bad/shocking performances either IMO. I think that there is an inherent bias with football fans and transfer fees we tend to look at everyone in terms of what we paid for them and compare performances that way. A £50m player is going to get more stick for consistently putting in 7/10 performances than a £20m player or someone who came through the youth system. And even if they post good numbers they don't get a huge amount of credit because you expect a £50m player to put in those types of performances.

If Naby could put in the types of performances we saw at the end of last season then he's a very good player and is getting a place in our side where there is a lot of competition from a lot of other good players. Even if he isn't at that level he is still in contention, so he's not a bad player. The biggest problem with him IMO is the injuries he isn't going to show his best form until we can get him fit and keep him fit.

Exactly my point, succinctly put. I should have PM'd you my replies in advance to save a lot of unnecessary reading for people.

[baitman]

Quote:
A £50m player is going to get more stick for consistently putting in 7/10 performances...

But if he was putting in those 7/10 performances then he wouldn't be an issue, but many of his performances ar 5/10 at best.