Nat Phillips

[Exiled_red]

Does Phillips's homegrown status become a factor as a potential 4th choice?

Given the injury records of Gomez/Matip I till think he would play a few games

It depends on what we do with our squad in the summer, at present we have 17 non-homegrown players (which is the max), if we bring Minamino back (and sign Kabak) we have 18, but Wijnaldum is seemingly leaving which takes us back to the maximum of 17. At that point we would need to operate a one in one out system for players who don't qualify as homegrown. But likely players to leave who would free up these slots are Adrian, Origi, Shaqiri. I doubt we will sign more than 3 non-homegrown players not at CB - if we bring in another CB (as well as Kabak) I imagine he will be a replacement for Matip, so to be honest I don't see the homegrown thing being an issue this summer.

[Charly]

I dont see Matip leaving. Nobody will risk buying him. He is fantastic when fit, so I think we will keep him.

That is why I would rather not buy Kabak, and spend the money on a premium centreback.

Good point about foreign players. I think we would be silly to sell Phillips at this stage. He is still young enough to improve, and I think understands his own limitations. I dont know why, but I get a Lovren vibe from Kabak.

[kev776]

If Kabak stays and we buy Konate, this could put Philips as 6th choice, why the **** would he stay? He was on his way out with 3 CBs ahead of him, since then we will have bought 3 more, 2 of which will be ahead of him plus Davies.

[Paul12]

If Kabak stays and we buy Konate, this could put Philips as 6th choice, why the **** would he stay? He was on his way out with 3 CBs ahead of him, since then we will have bought 3 more, 2 of which will be ahead of him plus Davies.

I know Kabak is cheap but do you actually think he suits our style of defence?

Personally I think Phillips has done better so if we are to keep one I'd keep him unless we think we can sell him for more than £18m, which I suspect is unlikely this summer.

[frank the tank]

Good option to bring on in the final 10-15 minutes in a close game against hoof teams

[Doc_Piptorious]

If Kabak stays and we buy Konate, this could put Philips as 6th choice, why the **** would he stay? He was on his way out with 3 CBs ahead of him, since then we will have bought 3 more, 2 of which will be ahead of him plus Davies.

Think there are more plusses to keeping Kabak than Phillips, as well as Phillips has done.

Kabak is something like three years younger, to my eyes his positioning is far far better when we do not have the ball and he gets drawn out of position far less when we are advancing as a unit. He is generally better on the ball and will play out from the back with short or long passes.

Phillips is a better blood and guts style defender and imho would better suit a team that plays in a more compact manner and that holds a deeper line than we or any of the other top teams tend to do.

I think Phillips could move to a team like Burnley and look excellent in that sort of set up as it would play to his strength and leave him less prone to being caught out by pace as there would be less space between the back line and the midfield line at that sort of club.

He has done well when called in, better than expected, but his value is now higher than it ever was and I would cash in unless he wanted to go back to being a 24 yo that plays ressie games instead of being a guy getting regular first team starts for a team. Those regular starts he is not getting for us next season once our starters are back in play. Someone like Kabak, being three years younger, might be better suited to being one of the back up CBs for another season or so as he has more time on his side.

[kubrickscube]

I think you’re being unfair. Phillips has been consistently solid and come in from nowhere to hold down his place. With the fitness of Matip and Gomez so unstable, I’d be keeping him and Kabak, regardless of whether we get konate

[Doc_Piptorious]

I think you’re being unfair. Phillips has been consistently solid and come in from nowhere to hold down his place. With the fitness of Matip and Gomez so unstable, I’d be keeping him and Kabak, regardless of whether we get konate

Don't think I am being unfair really. I said I thought that Phillips has done well and has been much better than expected. I'm not slagging the guy off at all.

I just think his positioning is not great at all and he badly lacks pace in terms of being able to play well in a team that plays a high line.

I also think that at 24 he might be at a point in his career that he would want to become a first team regular rather than go back to being a ressie.

And me saying a team like Burnley would suit him is really not a knock on him either as I think he would be a great fit for a well drilled team that holds a compact shape and plays with two deep lines.

He is a player that I think would have the ability to carve out a decent career for himself away from Liverpool and become one of the main men at the back for a more defensive team. He could well go on to be a player like Coady at Wolves, not good enough for a team that has ambitions of doing well in the league and in Europe, but good enough to develop and shine at a team a level or two down from the title chasing teams.

I think if he does not go and we do not have a crisis at CB again next season, then he will go back to training with the first team and rarely getting minutes save for league cup games and the like and then he will be heading for 25 and only having a small number of career games to his name and the shine from this season having gone.

As things stand I reckon we could get the sort of transfer fee for him that would have been unimaginable last August, and his stock is up so the sort of club that might be in for him would be a lot beter than last August as well.

[Charly]

As has been pointed out, we have too many foreign players in the squad. Im not sure the Kabak is any better positionally than Phillips. And being younger than Phillips is not a bonus in any way. Experience is more important than youth almost every time in that position. The other thing being he is still young enough to develop. I remember Carragher at a similar age was limited in a similar fashion (and his lack of ability far more exposed at fulback).

We might have to adapt the backline slightly if Phillips plays, but how many "slow" centrebacks have there been down the years that have done the job? I agree we need to bring a top centreback in. But if we keep Phillips (as we should) I dont see the point of keeping Kabak too (especially with the added transfer fee and wages).

I think the biggest problem is not knowing how fit the main 3 centrebacks are going to be next season. We are hampered by our financial situation. FSG may be inclined to pump in a bit of cash depending on where things stand with FFP. But if we have to spend within our means, it is likely we would need to sell someone if we were to bring in both Kabak and someone else at the back. I doubt there will be any takers for Matip (and I would be inclined to keep him as I think he is a fantastic player). Gomez is english, and leaves us in a similar problem with our foreign player limit. Obviously, they sell VVD over my twitching, urine stenched corpse.

I think a further problem is the rest of the team is looking slightly the worse for wear. We need someone who can carry the ball forward in midfield. We may also lose Wijnaldum. Keita and Ox are totally unreliable. Hendo has had another bad injury.

Then up front Mane is having a mare, and I have no idea what has happened to Firmino. The fear being the only reliable goalscorer in the entire squad may be enticed away.

And then of course the lack of cover at fullback, which i thin has been devastating, due to most of our assists coming from those areas, with both Trent and Robertson having had awful seasons by their own amazingly high standards (I get the feeling Robertson is running on fumes at the moment).

I think Klopp has a huge job on his hands. I am not sure how much of our problems are self inflicted due to our higher workrate over the preceeding seasons and comparitvely smaller squad (to City), or perhaps we are just unlucky. It must be hard to make plans without knowing who will be fit, especially when our budget is not going to be huge (especially if we are not in the champions league).

[Doc_Piptorious]

As has been pointed out, we have too many foreign players in the squad. Im not sure the Kabak is any better positionally than Phillips. And being younger than Phillips is not a bonus in any way. Experience is more important than youth almost every time in that position. The other thing being he is still young enough to develop. I remember Carragher at a similar age was limited in a similar fashion (and his lack of ability far more exposed at fulback).

We might have to adapt the backline slightly if Phillips plays, but how many "slow" centrebacks have there been down the years that have done the job? I agree we need to bring a top centreback in. But if we keep Phillips (as we should) I dont see the point of keeping Kabak too (especially with the added transfer fee and wages).

I think the biggest problem is not knowing how fit the main 3 centrebacks are going to be next season. We are hampered by our financial situation. FSG may be inclined to pump in a bit of cash depending on where things stand with FFP. But if we have to spend within our means, it is likely we would need to sell someone if we were to bring in both Kabak and someone else at the back. I doubt there will be any takers for Matip (and I would be inclined to keep him as I think he is a fantastic player). Gomez is english, and leaves us in a similar problem with our foreign player limit. Obviously, they sell VVD over my twitching, urine stenched corpse.

I think a further problem is the rest of the team is looking slightly the worse for wear. We need someone who can carry the ball forward in midfield. We may also lose Wijnaldum. Keita and Ox are totally unreliable. Hendo has had another bad injury.

Then up front Mane is having a mare, and I have no idea what has happened to Firmino. The fear being the only reliable goalscorer in the entire squad may be enticed away.

And then of course the lack of cover at fullback, which i thin has been devastating, due to most of our assists coming from those areas, with both Trent and Robertson having had awful seasons by their own amazingly high standards (I get the feeling Robertson is running on fumes at the moment).

I think Klopp has a huge job on his hands. I am not sure how much of our problems are self inflicted due to our higher workrate over the preceeding seasons and comparitvely smaller squad (to City), or perhaps we are just unlucky. It must be hard to make plans without knowing who will be fit, especially when our budget is not going to be huge (especially if we are not in the champions league).

If you are comparing Kabak and Phillips and saying experience is more important than age, then Phillips is by far the less experienced of the two despite being three years old.

Kabak has an awful lot more first team experience than Phillips and will be further along in his development at 21 than Phillips is at 24 as a result.


Phillips has 39 first team games to his name, taking into account playing for us and when he was out on loan along with zero international experience be it in the full England team, the u23s , U21s or U18s.


Kabak has 90 senior first team games to his name at club level. 40 of those in the Bundesliga and 9 in the Premier league. He is also a full Turkish international with 10 games for the Turkish national team along with 48 underage caps.



Comparing Carragher to Phillips at the same age is a total mismatch. Carragher at 24 had played in 221 first team games for Liverpool and was an established starter by then, a starter that had been part of the first team that won the FA cup, the UEFA cup, League cup and Super Cup.

Carragher at 20 is closer to Phillips at 24 in terms of experience.

But again I am not trying to knock Phillips, I just think he is not going to be difficult to replace if he wants to move on, and I do think he would not be played much at all if we do not have another CB crisis next season, and that is even before getting around to whether or not he is a good enough CB to play for a team that wants to compete for the PL or CL.


Also with regards to how many slow centre back have done the job for us over the years. Quite a few I will agree. But those that stand out the most in recent years played in teams managed by Benitez and Houllier. Two managers that generally set up their teams to play deeper than how Klopp tends to set up his teams.


Cannot disagree in the slightest with your comments about midfield, attack and fullback cover. Everything you said there is spot on imho, and we need to try to move on (in the next few transfer windows) as many of the players that do not contribute enough (be it on the pitch or through being out too often).

It is actually baffling how big a list of players one could make of players that we would not miss at all if they were gone in the morning, and that is even without touching on the permacrocks in the squad or the attackers whose form has dipped badly.

[Charly]

So we agree on eveything except "Kabak v Phillips"?

Thats still enough for me to delare war upon you, sir!

I dont ever remember arguing this passionately about 4/5th choice centreback before.

[Doc_Piptorious]

So we agree on eveything except "Kabak v Phillips"?

Thats still enough for me to delare war upon you, sir!

I dont ever remember arguing this passionately about 4/5th choice centreback before.

Shows how stuck we are for something to debate about.


We also do not agree on Carragher being at Phillip's level, be it in terms of experience or abilitywise at the same age, so we have that too.



War it is.

[Pablo]

[ame="https://youtu.be/r3BO6GP9NMY?t=176"]The Day Today - WAR! - YouTube[/ame]

[frank the tank]

[frank the tank]

I think i would keep both Kabak and Phillips.......and buy Konate if possible.

All 3 players in front of them cannot be relied on to play every game. There is an argument that only one of them will start next season (hopefully Virgil) as having 2 defenders just back from injury is a huge risk.

Matip - if we could sell him, then I would. Simply because he can't be relied on to not have 4 or 5 niggling injuries over a season. But with the current pandemic, I can't see anyone even paying his wages let alone paying a transfer fee for him. Maybe someone like Palace will get desperate on deadline day, you never know.

Kabak - for a relatively low fee for a young player, plus the fact that Edwards will probably do a deal where we end up paying 12 quid a week for 45 years, then it is a low risk transfer. I wonder will Jurgen be honest with the player though - particularly if we are signing someone else like Konate - and tell him to go somewhere he would play all of the time. For me, he is the most likely not to be here next season. Although I would quite like to see him next to Virgil........he could be brilliant then.

Phillips - someone pointed out that he would be an ideal sub to bring on towards the end of games against the likes of Burnley. That is a really good point. I don't think he would play every week but with the cup games and possibly europa, then surely he should stay for that. Plus with the pandemic impacting transfer fees anyway, then it's unlikely that we would get a bumper offer for him. He could end up playing 10 to 15 games - or parts of games - next season, and his transfer value would increase anyway.