Boxing

[Doc_Piptorious]

Jaco

What are you thoughts on Thomas Hearns as a boxer

Stylistically I think he was lovely to watch when he was on the front foot. He had a jab that was excellent in offensive and defensive terms. He used every inch of that long frame, especially at welterweight through to middleweight, to his advantage and was a lot tough and more durable than he is often given credit for.

He is almost an all time great for me as he has some fantastic wins to his name, but he also lost a number of defining fights so for me that has him below Hagler and Leonard and above Duran (to use the quartet most associated with each other from that era)

I think his biggest flaw was that he often fought to the level of the other guy or allowed himself to be drawn into the sort of fight the other guy wanted to have instead of boxing smart and using his jab to dictate distance and rhythm against certain guys. Aginst Hagler and Leonard, the former in particular, he allowed himself to be pulled into going at it in a manner that suited the other guy rather than trying to fight at range and control the pace more.

His power was chilling and he had real power that he carried right up to cruiserweight. Amazing really that a giy that sarted at welter could still bang like that at Cruiserweight and for me it is something that raises a few questions as to why he did not take advanatge of that power more at some of the lighter weights he fought at.

Think he was unlucky in some ways with being around the welter and middleweight divisions at the same time as Leonard or Hagler. Remove those guys and he would have rules from welter to Middle as an all time great in my eyes (though I think Wilfred Benitez, whom he beat at middleweight, would have beaten him at welter (I rate Wilfred Benitez as one of the best welters of all time (and like Hearns he was another great welter who was beaten by Leonard)

[spud_gun]

Usyk is a lovely boxer and really well schooled, but needs better than the likes of Joshua, Gassiev and Bellew for me to be above some of the names ahead of him. He beats Joshua again in the summer and then takes out a few of the bigger lumps that make up the bottom half of the heavyweight top ten then he will go higher as Usyk beating big albeit limited heavyweights would score high for me as he would be overcoming a size difference against most of the heavyweights from about number four or five down in the heavyweight ranks.


As for saying Taylor should be higher. He is not at Loma's level imo, not yet anyway and nowhere near Spence or Crawford imo, so I see no way to rank him any higher than I did. He did well to get fourth as being Scottish is normally a serious handicap to progression up the ranks. Plus me saying he is the fourth best P4P guy on the planet is not underrating his unbeaten run in the slightest.

If Taylor went up to welterweight in the morning I would expect Crawford or Spence to beat him so cannot justify bumping him further up if I think two guys ahead of him would beat him.

Agreed on Usyk. He's a wonderful technician.

r.e. Taylor. Not suggesting that you are underrating his run....just the public in general. He should be a superstar given what he's achieved. Sadly it's not the case.

[spud_gun]

Which is why he made my list.

But he also has a hell of a lot of catchweight fights there and a lot of ones where he got to dictate when the weigh ins would be and so on, not to mentions his PED issues, so much like his steaks and milkshakes his record is somewhat tainted.

Oh no doubt there's a ton of question marks over him then again he isn't the first fighter to exploit catchweight fights. His loss is against another modern day master of doing exactly that.

Purely in terms of variety of names i found it interesting. He beat the Kermit Cintron and Mosley in back to back fights 10 years ago. For some reason that tickled me. I liked Cintron back in the day.

[spud_gun]

Everyone above Usyk have had longer winning streaks or have more better level names (or more what would have been seen at the time as 50/50 fights) on their records though. Or are just better more rounded fighters to a higher level than Usyk imo.


Usyk is a lovely boxer and really well schooled, but needs better than the likes of Joshua, Gassiev and Bellew for me to be above some of the names ahead of him. He beats Joshua again in the summer and then takes out a few of the bigger lumps that make up the bottom half of the heavyweight top ten then he will go higher as Usyk beating big albeit limited heavyweights would score high for me as he would be overcoming a size difference against most of the heavyweights from about number four or five down in the heavyweight ranks.


As for saying Taylor should be higher. He is not at Loma's level imo, not yet anyway and nowhere near Spence or Crawford imo, so I see no way to rank him any higher than I did. He did well to get fourth as being Scottish is normally a serious handicap to progression up the ranks. Plus me saying he is the fourth best P4P guy on the planet is not underrating his unbeaten run in the slightest.

If Taylor went up to welterweight in the morning I would expect Crawford or Spence to beat him so cannot justify bumping him further up if I think two guys ahead of him would beat him.



As for Ginger Balls vs Bivol. Not quite sure what you are saying when you said




You seem to be saying it is a 50/50 by saying it is no gimmie but also saying that Ginger is going to be winning it handily enough if you are saying he is going to win by a wide UD decision.


Me I think Bivol is the best fighter That Ginger has faced in a while, but that Bivol has never faced a fighter like Ginger or close to his level. Would be surprised if Bivol scores a knockdown against Ginger and surprised if he won five out of the twelve rounds and not surprised if Ginger forced a stoppage.

Ginger is one of the most calculating pricks I have ever seen in the sport when it comes to picking an opponent and for looking for every advantage, if Giner goes into a fight not looking for a ton of "compromises" then you can be sure that he and/or his team have spotted something in Bivol that they like the look of and think they can exploit.

From Bivol's pov it is win/win as he is not expected to win so a loss will not do any damage to his name (similar to how losing to Mayweather did nothing to Ginger's name) and if he did manage to somehow get a win he would be pushed straight into having a much higher profile and able to command bigger purses.

Sorry - the Bivol fight isn't a gimme for Alvarez. If it goes to points then it'll be a wide UD irrespective of what actually happened in the ring.

[Assassin]

Jaco

What are you thoughts on Thomas Hearns as a boxer

[Doc_Piptorious]

I'd also have Usyk higher.

Cruiser king going up to heavy and beating a live heavy champion (despite what we may think about Joshua) is no mean feat.

Pretty much impossible to have a unanimous P4P list. The top 4 / 5 are all interchangeable

Having a look through Canelo's wiki he's actually got a very impressive resume.

Which is why he made my list.

But he also has a hell of a lot of catchweight fights there and a lot of ones where he got to dictate when the weigh ins would be and so on, not to mentions his PED issues, so much like his steaks and milkshakes his record is somewhat tainted.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Everyone above Usyk have had longer winning streaks or have more better level names (or more what would have been seen at the time as 50/50 fights) on their records though. Or are just better more rounded fighters to a higher level than Usyk imo.


Usyk is a lovely boxer and really well schooled, but needs better than the likes of Joshua, Gassiev and Bellew for me to be above some of the names ahead of him. He beats Joshua again in the summer and then takes out a few of the bigger lumps that make up the bottom half of the heavyweight top ten then he will go higher as Usyk beating big albeit limited heavyweights would score high for me as he would be overcoming a size difference against most of the heavyweights from about number four or five down in the heavyweight ranks.


As for saying Taylor should be higher. He is not at Loma's level imo, not yet anyway and nowhere near Spence or Crawford imo, so I see no way to rank him any higher than I did. He did well to get fourth as being Scottish is normally a serious handicap to progression up the ranks. Plus me saying he is the fourth best P4P guy on the planet is not underrating his unbeaten run in the slightest.

If Taylor went up to welterweight in the morning I would expect Crawford or Spence to beat him so cannot justify bumping him further up if I think two guys ahead of him would beat him.



As for Ginger Balls vs Bivol. Not quite sure what you are saying when you said

Alvarez is out again this weekend against Bivol. I wouldn't sleep on this one, it's no gimmie. In saying a Mexican fighter fighting on Cinco De Mayo is winning by a wide UD even if he's been down 4 times in the fight.

You seem to be saying it is a 50/50 by saying it is no gimmie but also saying that Ginger is going to be winning it handily enough if you are saying he is going to win by a wide UD decision.


Me I think Bivol is the best fighter That Ginger has faced in a while, but that Bivol has never faced a fighter like Ginger or close to his level. Would be surprised if Bivol scores a knockdown against Ginger and surprised if he won five out of the twelve rounds and not surprised if Ginger forced a stoppage.

Ginger is one of the most calculating pricks I have ever seen in the sport when it comes to picking an opponent and for looking for every advantage, if Giner goes into a fight not looking for a ton of "compromises" then you can be sure that he and/or his team have spotted something in Bivol that they like the look of and think they can exploit.

From Bivol's pov it is win/win as he is not expected to win so a loss will not do any damage to his name (similar to how losing to Mayweather did nothing to Ginger's name) and if he did manage to somehow get a win he would be pushed straight into having a much higher profile and able to command bigger purses.

[spud_gun]

I'd also have Usyk higher.

Cruiser king going up to heavy and beating a live heavy champion (despite what we may think about Joshua) is no mean feat.

Pretty much impossible to have a unanimous P4P list. The top 4 / 5 are all interchangeable

Having a look through Canelo's wiki he's actually got a very impressive resume.

[spud_gun]

Good list. Not sure I'd have Loma so high purely because of the Lopez loss. Taylor should be higher. The 2 year run he went on to become undisputed is criminally underrated by just about everyone. Also he's Scottish so that's moving him up a place or two

Alvarez is out again this weekend against Bivol. I wouldn't sleep on this one, it's no gimmie. In saying a Mexican fighter fighting on Cinco De Mayo is winning by a wide UD even if he's been down 4 times in the fight.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Taylor is at number 8 in the official rankings.

But in the P4P ratings that matter, the Jaco P P4P, Taylor is up to number four. He does drop to fifth if I do a male/female combined rankings though but fourth in that case still is a Taylor . I had it in my head the other day that K Taylor would be 3rd in my combined rankings, but had forgotten to add Loma.


Jaco P Official P4P Rankings

1. Crawford
2. Spence jr
3. Lomachenko
4. J. Taylor
5. Davis
6. Ginger Balls - cannot totally erase the fecker
7. Inoue
8. Estrada
9. Gonzalez
10. Uysk

Fury would make my top twenty atm, actually he gets into my top 15, but guys like Joshua and especially Wilder should be nowhere near a top 20 P4P list, not even one made by Helen Keller.

[spud_gun]

Just had a look at the P4P rankings.

Taylor at 8 is frankly offensive.

[Doc_Piptorious]

There were quotes from Crawford a day or two back that he's wanting the fight with Spence made and then he's moving up. So there's a chance it may happen this year.

I like Inoue a lot, i see he's out against old man Donaire again next month.

There is a chance Crawford Spence gets made but as much chance it does not.

Inoue is a lovely fighter to watch but there is nobody in the division as good as him imo. Donaire is probably the closest to him and he has already beaten him once.

So unless Crawford Spence gets made for 2022 or Loma vs Davis gets made for 2022 I cannot think of any other pairing that could be made in all of mens boxing that would be a pairing on the level of Taylor vs Serrano in terms of two P4Ps meeting in their prime, and then even if the mens P4Pers do meet, then they still need to trun in an even stevens war at a higher level to Taylor/Serrano. Tough ask imo.

Crawford vs Spence is the only fight in Mens boxing that could do that if we are talking best meeting the best and with the potenial of fireworks for an entire fight with great back and forths and comebacks. Crawford and Spence are, for me, the number one and two P4Pers in the world right now (Ginger balled glow in the dark pisser can **** right off) and even if you go by the actual P4P ranking they are the two highest ranking guys who share a division.

Ginger and Usyk being the cureent numbers one and two I do not agree with at all (Though Usyk is there on the back of his crusierweight performances as much as anything so he is probably a current top ten P4P...maybe)

Estrada is another I would bump down the list a little and swap him and Taylor from where they are in the rankings despite Taylor being por last time out. Taylor for me should be higher than Estrada on the P4P rankings.

Davis should be higher than Gonzalez and Ioka as well imo.

Joshua and Wilder should be nowhere near being in the top 20. How either of them are ranked as being better P4P boxers than say Callum Smith is a joke.

[spud_gun]

There were quotes from Crawford a day or two back that he's wanting the fight with Spence made and then he's moving up. So there's a chance it may happen this year.

I like Inoue a lot, i see he's out against old man Donaire again next month.

[Doc_Piptorious]

In the limited highlights I've seen Stevenson looked very impressive. Valdez was made to look fairly ordinary.

As for Taylor/Serrano. I've got no interest in woman's boxing so can't really comment on the fight.

Stevenson looked elite.


As for no interest in womens boxing, that is your loss big time with regards to that fight. It will easily be one of the fights of the year and may well end up being the FOTY, they also are already talking about a rematch later on this year so no hanging about with them.

I'm not the biggest follower of womens boxing in general but Taylor vs Serrano was a quality fight and they conducted themselves so well before and after the fight and went at it like warriors between the ropes. If there is a fight in mans boxing that turns out to be better than it this year, then it is going to be one amazing fight but do not think there will be one as there are no fights in the mens ranks lined up yet that have two fighters of the same sort of high level meeting.

Taylor vs Serrano was the two best women in all of womens boxing right now regardless of weight divisions meeting and then both hitting their A game on the night and neither giving an inch.

There are only a couple of potential fights in the mens division that could match it in terms of the quality of fighters involved (Crawford vs Spence if they could get it signed being the most obvious one and maybe Lomachenko vs Davis. Would have chucked Inoue in there too but still a little unsure if he is as good as he seems to be along with there being no other fighter at Bathamweight on his level right now to make a mega fight with) but none of those fights look like happening in 2022.

[spud_gun]

In the limited highlights I've seen Stevenson looked very impressive. Valdez was made to look fairly ordinary.

As for Taylor/Serrano. I've got no interest in woman's boxing so can't really comment on the fight.