Boxing

[Doc_Piptorious]

With the weekend's fight almost upon us, might be fun to see who everyone here rates as their best middleweight of all time.


For me Hagler was the best middleweight of all time, although from watching old fights I think Monzon would have ran him very close.

Hagler simply had everything in his locker. Power, speed, a silky boxer (something that most forget as most think of his latter career wars when he had slowed a lot ), vicious body puncher, granite chin, fantastic timer of shots, fantastic timer of his rival, an unbreakable will or self confidence and could fight when boxing was not enough.


Have picked Hagler over a lot of great names. Hopkins and Monzon being the two that came closest in my head.


I left out a lot of great boxers too. Sugar Ray Robinson being the most obvious omission. He is the greatest boxer of all time for me, but whilst he was a great middleweight, his peak was at lower weights, notably welterweight.

Jame Toney I left out as well as his time at middleweight was not too long and the calibre that he fought and beat at the weight was not really enough to counter his lack of time as a middleweight.


Hearns, Duran, and Leonard come nowhere near my list due to all of them being much better at other weights and through none of them ever being dominant as a middleweight champ.



Golovkin is an interesting one. He is close to 7 years a middleweight champion, wonderfully talented, and has an amazing amatuer pedigree. I think he is a fighter that would have done well in an era of middleweight boxing, but the names he has beaten during his middleweight reign does not stack up to the names beaten bu the likes of Hagler, Monzon, or Hopkins during their main reigns.

[spud_gun]

And that was two men who could hit hard and who both had great chins.

And to put that fight into context for Hagler, that was his next fight after the war with Hearns. Man was a true warrior in the ring.

One of my all time favourite fighters.

Look at how he came up.

He was thrown in at the deep end from the early stages of his career. 2 defeats early in his career against proper hard men. Not many modern boxers come up that way now.

[Zapater]

Hard to say, tons of good middleweights. Obviously the Robinson, LaMotta, Cerdan, Tony Zale, Graziano, Basilio and Fulmer era is supposedly the greatest cluster of middleweights of all time. I've read a lot about those guys and seen a lot of the footage which survives. Looks great but it's a pity there wasn't the recording technology then that there was now, because I'm sure a lot of their best have exploits would be lost to history. LaMotta's autobiography is brilliant, one of the best things I've ever read, brilliant. Hard to believe that he's still alive considering how he lived his life; both in and out of the ring.

In terms of true modern middleweights you'd definitely need to list Hagler, Monzon and reluctantly Hopkins. There have been other great fighters who have excelled at middleweight but the majority of their success has fallen in lower or higher weights, especially with the introduction of the super middleweight and light-middleweight divisions.

Sergio Martinez is a personal favourite of mine, the way apart Paul Williams and Kelly Pavlik the way he did in successive bouts is something that needs to be respected. His body deteriorated really badly in his last couple of years but when he was at his best he was class. It's a pity he didn't have enough defining fights but was no doubt quality. Quick and heavy hands.

Honourable mention to Michael Nunn, great style and vicious left hand

[Doc_Piptorious]

Hard to say, tons of good middleweights. Obviously the Robinson, LaMotta, Cerdan, Tony Zale, Graziano, Basilio and Fulmer era is supposedly the greatest cluster of middleweights of all time. I've read a lot about those guys and seen a lot of the footage which survives. Looks great but it's a pity there wasn't the recording technology then that there was now, because I'm sure a lot of their best have exploits would be lost to history. LaMotta's autobiography is brilliant, one of the best things I've ever read, brilliant. Hard to believe that he's still alive considering how he lived his life; both in and out of the ring.

In terms of true modern middleweights you'd definitely need to list Hagler, Monzon and reluctantly Hopkins. There have been other great fighters who have excelled at middleweight but the majority of their success has fallen in lower or higher weights, especially with the introduction of the super middleweight and light-middleweight divisions.

Sergio Martinez is a personal favourite of mine, the way apart Paul Williams and Kelly Pavlik the way he did in successive bouts is something that needs to be respected. His body deteriorated really badly in his last couple of years but when he was at his best he was class. It's a pity he didn't have enough defining fights but was no doubt quality. Quick and heavy hands.

Honourable mention to Michael Nunn, great style and vicious left hand

Yeah there are lots of guys who looked like the might have had the tools to be a great at middleweight. Martinez is a great shout as one of them, but I was trying to keep my own list to guys who had proven themselves as greats and my own criteria took two things into account as defining factors, quality of oppenents beaten and duration of title reign.


Now I could see a guy with a shorter reign as a great if he had a stunning list of wins to his name in the division, or a guy with a really long name and with some top names beaten during that reign.

To be honest that was how Hopkins got in there for me in my top three. Like him or utterly loathe him, he had an amazing reign as a middleweight champ in terms of duration (10 years a middleweight champ in the modern era is a hell of an achievement and the list has some good scalps. Also the guy lost eight fights in his career but six of those came after his 40th birthday.

Horrible to watch in the ring in many ways, but a master of what he did and he was as tough as teak as managing to go the distance with Kovalev at the age of 49 showed.


But his middleweight career was very good. Only two guys beat him with a strap on the line, a peakRoy Jones Jr and a peak Jermain Taylor and it went to the scorecards against both of them.



Actually speaking of middleweights who will remain what if boxers like Martinez, Jermain Taylor falls into that category for me. Hugely talented man with the sort of skills that Andre Ward has today, but his demons say his career get thrown away.

[Doc_Piptorious]

One of my all time favourite fighters.

Look at how he came up.

He was thrown in at the deep end from the early stages of his career. 2 defeats early in his career against proper hard men. Not many modern boxers come up that way now.

Yeah they way he cut his teeth in the sport would be alien to most modern fighters. His book is an excellent read and shows just how hard it was for him inside and outside the ring, and how many obstacles were in his way just to get a title shot. Just imagine a fighter nowadays having to wait 50 fights to get a title shot despite having beaten a string of top contenders.

And then when he did get the belt he defended successfully against names like Hearns, Mugabi, Hamsho (twice), Duran, Antuofermo and Roldan. Even a lot of the journeymen on Hagler's record were tough men that could make the best earn a win.

[spud_gun]

Yeah they way he cut his teeth in the sport would be alien to most modern fighters. His book is an excellent read and shows just how hard it was for him inside and outside the ring, and how many obstacles were in his way just to get a title shot. Just imagine a fighter nowadays having to wait 50 fights to get a title shot despite having beaten a string of top contenders.

And then when he did get the belt he defended successfully against names like Hearns, Mugabi, Hamsho (twice), Duran, Antuofermo and Roldan. Even a lot of the journeymen on Hagler's record were tough men that could make the best earn a win.

What's the name of the Hagler book?

I've read the peerless The Four Kings and its probably the best boxing book I've read.

[Doc_Piptorious]

What's the name of the Hagler book?

I've read the peerless The Four Kings and its probably the best boxing book I've read.

Marvelous: The Marvin Hagler Story






It is a biography rather than an autobiography, but a very enjoyable read. I read it and the Sugar Ray Leonard autobiography back to back and they make for interestion companion pieces to the other.

[Shaggy]

What's the name of the Hagler book?

I've read the peerless The Four Kings and its probably the best boxing book I've read.

Funnily enough I ordered that last night after spending hours down the 80s middleweight rabbit hole.

[Pablo]

Guys, you've convinced me. Hagler to win on points this weekend

[Saveloy]

I read an overly excitable article or blog the other day on some boxing website all about how Canelo has bulked up too much and 'transformed his body shape' in a few months. The author reckoned it was a sign GGG had got him worried but also that he would struggle with both speed and stamina at the weight he would likely be at.

Is there anything in that?

Edit - this is the one.

http://www.boxingnews24.com/2017/09/canelos-shocking-body-transformation-sign-worry/

[Doc_Piptorious]

I read an overly excitable article or blog the other day on some boxing website all about how Canelo has bulked up too much and 'transformed his body shape' in a few months. The author reckoned it was a sign GGG had got him worried but also that he would struggle with both speed and stamina at the weight he would likely be at.

Is there anything in that?

Edit - this is the one.

http://www.boxingnews24.com/2017/09/...on-sign-worry/

Think you nailed it when you said it was an overly excitable piece.


Canelo has always carried a fair bit of muscle. Look at pics of him before the Kirkland fight, the Khan fight or the Chavez fight. He went from lots of muscle to a slightly more lean muscled look and that was with him having to make the catchweight limits.

When he fights at a full blown middleweight limit he always looks bigger and more heavily muscled.

My guess is that he is finding it easy to make the weight for this fight and come fight night he will be carrying more weight than in some of his other fights but it is a weight he is very comfortable fighting at at the same time.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Guys, you've convinced me. Hagler to win on points this weekend

On Points? Hagler to beat Canelo in 8 and then he sparks Golovkin in 10.

[spud_gun]

Marvelous: The Marvin Hagler Story






It is a biography rather than an autobiography, but a very enjoyable read. I read it and the Sugar Ray Leonard autobiography back to back and they make for interestion companion pieces to the other.

Cheers.foe that.

Hands of Stone is another you should check out, if not already done

[spud_gun]

Funnily enough I ordered that last night after spending hours down the 80s middleweight rabbit hole.

You won't be disappointed.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Cheers.foe that.

Hands of Stone is another you should check out, if not already done

I have it along with his autobiography I Am Duran.


If you are thinking of getting the Hagler biography, then keep an eye out for the Thomas Hearn biography by the same author as the Hagler book. It is called Hit Man: The Thomas Hearns story.


Have two more Boxing books sitting in my must read soon bundle at home they are Unforgivable Blackness: The Rise and Fall of Jack Johnson and Max Baer: Clown Prince of Boxing.