Boxing

[spud_gun]

See that I cannot quite agree with. I would say he is a good boxer within certain parameters. But looking at him as a boxer in more general terms then
I see a lot of things about him that have deteriorated over the years and by that I mean things that are more down to possibly not doing the basics in training rather than age related deterioration.

I think he suffers from more than a touch of the Connor McGregor in that he reached a certain level, a peak if you will, in terms of his skillset and his application of that skillset and then seemed to stop doing a lot of it in the ring as well as he did or in videos of him training/sparring.

I can actually separate Fury the boxer from Fury the person quite easily, it is just that Fury the boxer is not impressive (by that I mean as an over all package) and less so than he may have been in the recent past.

I also think Fury has picked his opponents very very carefully. I think a lot of those he faced were picked to minimize any risk to his weaknesses maybe more than they were picked to suit his strengths.

What I have always given him credit for is his ability, and I hate how he does it as I find it as scummy as how McGregor does the exact same thing, to get into the head of an opponent. That he is very very good at and that can tip a fight in your favour before a bell is wrong. The most impressive show of this for me was in the build up to his fight against Wlad. He got into Wlad's head so much that Wlad was overly cautious of Fury's power rather than looking at the evidence from Fury's past fights. For me that will always be Furry's best win.

I do however think that Fury does, or maybe did, the basics better than Joshua does. Joshua to me is still very robotic and moves in a way that to this day reminds me of a much bigger Bruce Seldon. Just with the extra hitting power than comes from the extra size/weight/reach. Joshua I just find less interesting to pick apart stylistically than Fury as he attempts less by way of curveballs and has a very safe style that relies a lot more on his size than pure boxing ability. Put him in against a big heavyweight that could box beynd doing the basic well and that was strategic in how he changed things mid fight, say someone like Lennox Lewis, and I would fancy Joshua to be blown out of it within two rounds. Lewis would do to him what he did to Michael Grant. Grant and Seldon being the two fighters Johua always brings to mind for me.

Fury to me is someone who tries to copy stuff he has seen classic boxers do and he has tried to mimic and incorporate the styles of boxer fighters rather than more traditional heavyweight styles. I do not think he has nailed it, but you can see it in some of what he tries. Some of it makes him awkward to face, and some of it he does not need as it takes from his offensive game. But then again I do not think he minds losing offensive capabilities as he is very much a defensive first fighter and he plays the %s against any fighter there is a risk against more often than not imo.

It's funny that you suggest Fury has deteriorated as a boxer when he put on the best performance of his career in his last fight.

I think his fundamentals are still solid. The feints, 'shoulder rolls' and jab and the intangibles are what sets him apart at the moment.

Boxing has always seen mimicry. Without it we'd have been deprived of Mayweathers shoulder roll or Hopkins take on the 'Philly Shell. No shame in Fury doing the same.

You rightly point out that he's a safety first fighter and for that I applaud him. He has all the physical tools to bulldoze people but he's more content to limit the damage he takes by utilising his skill set and out boxing opponents.

If you're going to throw Lewis bombs into the thread then of course Fidget is going to agree with you

I'm in no doubt Lewis would beat both Joshua and Fury in the same night.

[fidget]

Think that post needed a at the end of it

Was looking for any value in the betting but can't really see any so think I'll just sit back and watch it.
I think Joshaua will come in light for him but that won't be in order to outbox Usyk he'll be looking to impose himself fast and blow him away if possible.
He's been sparring a lot with one hand tied so that says to me will be looking to slip the lead and counter with power. Of course "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." and depending on what happens during any early exchange we might see Joshua have to revert to plan B which is where the lighter weight will serve him.
Joshua should get the KO but that still won't really tell us much about where he's up to. He's a relative novice at 31 but not to sound like a broken record that's testament to the dearth of talent at heavyweight.
I'd like to have seen Usyk v Joe Joyce.

[Zapater]

If I were you Zap, I would be more concerned with the Stadler or Waldorf issue.

I know which one I am and I know which one you are , but I want to know if Spud Gun knows.

There are some questions with no good answer and this is definitely one of them.

In some alternative universe where we were them, and their seats were in the MGM Grand, then all I can say is we'd aesthetically and demographically fit in well with Larry Merchant. In likelihood would be telling him, to quote Roger Mayweather, that he doesn't know **** about boxing.

[Doc_Piptorious]

There are some questions with no good answer and this is definitely one of them.

In some alternative universe where we were them, and their seats were in the MGM Grand, then all I can say is we'd aesthetically and demographically fit in well with Larry Merchant. In likelihood would be telling him, to quote Roger Mayweather, that he doesn't know **** about boxing.

[Doc_Piptorious]

It's funny that you suggest Fury has deteriorated as a boxer when he put on the best performance of his career in his last fight.

I think his fundamentals are still solid. The feints, 'shoulder rolls' and jab and the intangibles are what sets him apart at the moment.

Boxing has always seen mimicry. Without it we'd have been deprived of Mayweathers shoulder roll or Hopkins take on the 'Philly Shell. No shame in Fury doing the same.

You rightly point out that he's a safety first fighter and for that I applaud him. He has all the physical tools to bulldoze people but he's more content to limit the damage he takes by utilising his skill set and out boxing opponents.

If you're going to throw Lewis bombs into the thread then of course Fidget is going to agree with you

I'm in no doubt Lewis would beat both Joshua and Fury in the same night.

Think a career best performance and a possibly faded skill set do not have to mutually exclusive. Plenty of examples of the year of a figher who is past his best then changing tact and pulling off something special.


I think he was by far the better boxer in both fights against Wilder, but if we are talking technique and Wilder then I would fancy half this thread to be capable of doinghe basics cleaner than Wilder


I do not think Fury has the power/tools to bull doze fighters though ( and by that I mean fighters at or close to his own level, though he has not done it on a regular basis againt inferior fighters either)) and I fancy that he knows it. I would go as far as to say that there are a good number of cruiserweights that can hit harder and cleaner than Fury despite his size.

Yes he uses feints, shoulder rolls, head dips and the like but so does Joshua (admittedly to a lesser degree) but they are more defensive than for setting up something offensive more often than not. And it is not like he has not made a career out of his style of boxing, because he very much has. However I will always stand by my opinion that 25 years ago he would not be seen as a genuine top ten heavyweight, as opposed to a figher dropped into the ranking in the build towards a fight, he would have been seen as an oddity that is awkward but stoppable.

Now the obvious retort is it is not 25 years ago and what he faces has to be who is around today which is fair as long as we do not try to cal the best of today's crop world class simply because they are the best of the current crop.

I do think he might beat Joshua though but, and this might seem odd, I think he fears or maybe is more reluctant to face Joshua than Joshua would be to face him. That is just a gut feeling on both things there but I think Fury gets into the heads of boxers who are thinkers, the ones that like to analyse, more easily than the once who are more straight forward in their thinking.

Joshua for me would handle the mind games and maybe come back with a bit of bite or **** you attitude. That is what I think would and does put Fury off Joshua a bit as Joshua tends to be the one of them that is usually keener to talk a fight between them and keen to set a date be it that is him calling Fury's bluff or not is up for debate. But the times a Joshua/Fury bout looked to have a chance of happening, Fury dropped a lot of his bravado and the body builder insults.

Then Wilder was back on the cards, a man Fury has no fear whatsoever of and for good reason, and we are back to "dosser" and "back to the gym, muscles" and what not for Wilder.


Joshua fights a confident Fury on the other hand and he will have to put him down early and keep him down. Just blast Fury out of it within three or four rounds. It goes longer than that, and I think it would, then Fury spoils, leans, mauls and saps the stamina from Joshua until Joshua is running on empty all whilst Fury picks up ugly round after ugly round along the way.

[spud_gun]

Looking past your obvious distaste for the current heavy scene...

When you suggest that you don't Fury has the tools to bulldoze fighters at his level. What fighters are you talking about?

The consensus top 3 heavyweights at the moment are Fury, Joshua and Wilder.

Fury has fought Wilder twice. Out boxed him once and bulldozed him in the second fight. He also bulldozed USS Cunningham

I fancy Fury to beat both Wilder (again) and Joshua.

You rightly state Fury shouldn't have anything to fear in the third Wilder fight.

In terms of boxing ability Fury is miles ahead of Joshua.

Perhaps unfairly i consider Joshua to be a big stiff robot. A modern day Frank Bruno. Even in the 2nd Ruiz fight when he got on his bike and 'boxed' i didn't consider him all that impressive.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Looking past your obvious distaste for the current heavy scene...

When you suggest that you don't Fury has the tools to bulldoze fighters at his level. What fighters are you talking about?

The consensus top 3 heavyweights at the moment are Fury, Joshua and Wilder.

Fury has fought Wilder twice. Out boxed him once and bulldozed him in the second fight. He also bulldozed USS Cunningham

I fancy Fury to beat both Wilder (again) and Joshua.

You rightly state Fury shouldn't have anything to fear in the third Wilder fight.

In terms of boxing ability Fury is miles ahead of Joshua.

Perhaps unfairly i consider Joshua to be a big stiff robot. A modern day Frank Bruno. Even in the 2nd Ruiz fight when he got on his bike and 'boxed' i didn't consider him all that impressive.

I'm not sure it is a distaste more than it is simply me not rating the division at all. I think it is the weakest least talented heavyweight division in my life time and I tend to treat it as such. I might see a decent heavyweight bout once in a blue moon when two lesser lights are equally matched or pre covid when I could attend bouts, but I just do not get excited by any fights in the division anymore.
I don't regard Wilder as being on Fury's level. Do not think Wilder is even close. All Wilder has in a match up with Fury is a puncher chance and that's it. Fury is a smarter boxer than him, does all of the basics better than him, and Wilder is seriously lacking in heart imo. Wilder is one of the biggest hype jobs in years and so so protected prior to Fury showing him up.

When I say I think he would struggle against his own level, I mean exactly that. Just that if he came up against boxers capable of matching what he can do. I just do not think that if he came up against someone who could spoil as well as he does (and being able to spoil like that is a talent. Ugly as hell but not so easy to do well) but that could hit, he would be in trouble and unable to out muscle or out punch the other guy.

I do regard Joshua to be sort of on Fury's level though. They each have plenty of what the other is only average at.

Fury imo has much better spatial awareness, better control of all the basics, a better defensive game, has better survival instincts when caught, usually displays better footwork but has very average power for a heavyweight and very average strength for a man his size/weight and I sometimes question his commitment to training properly.

Joshua then for me has the strength and power to match his size (though more concussive power than crazy one shot power) and he is quick to use that size and strength so he is proactive when it comes to his physical traits. But I think he is average when it comes to spatial awareness, ring craft, survival instincts, his defensive game and I do not think he always uses his jab as well as he could. That jab should be living in faces, and snapping quickly doubling and tripling up. I also question his fitness at times. Yes he looks great but a gym body is not always going to equal a going distance with ease body.


When I say average for anything with regards to them, that does not mean bad it just means average.

The Frank Bruno comparison is not a million miles off though I think he is more mobile than Bruno and less prone to panic when hit than Bruno was. Is why I see him as a bigger Bruce Seldon than being a Frank Bruno type boxer.

For me there is too much hype about Fury or Joshua. All week we are having Joshua or "experts" (with no boxing background and who normally are talking golf or footy on Sky) talking about how Joshua is one of the best technical heavyweight ever and that he would be dminant in any era and Usyk being bigged up as a world class heavyweight and how it is a true meeting of equals. Now I get a lot of this is to sell a fight, but for me it does the sport a disservice when every single bout is a PPV bout or being called a genuine high quality fight.

It also does the fans a disservice in my eyes as those with a little knowledge can tell what is being said is muck and those that might be casual viewers are being painted an unrealistic picture which only leads to disappointment and maybe people not tuning in to watch a class fight at a lighter weight as a result.


For me it is difficult to not compare eras at times especially when a weight division if a pale shadow of what it once was but still gets promoted as it the current crop as as good as any from the past. Plus some of the lighter divisions are really strong but they do not get the coverage or tv time so can be difficult for anyone to keep up with them save for post bout report or atching a replay online. For me boxing never adapted to following the talent. By that I mean it as a sport never quite figured out that if one division is weak and another is very strong, then make the strong division the gold standard one with all the tv time.

The Ruiz bout comments are pretty spot on as well. That has been called a masterclass by some and it is nothing of the sort.

The one thing Usyk does have that Joshua does not (despite what the media are trying to say), and that is well above average in ring skills. Usyk moves well, he feints, he jabs, he can defend well enough and attack well enough. He has good quick foot work and decent hand speed and seems to have a good tank. If it was a bout that was going to be decided by skills alone and by whose technique looks the cleanest then he would be a shoe in.

But he is giving away too many physical traits imho. Joshua has a much longer reach, Joshua has height, Joshua has weight and strength advantages and Joshua will hit harder.

If I was Usyk then I would be looking to get on the inside to work the body and then cut back out again, use angles to avoid leting him get a bead on me and to avoid him timing me too much and let him come onto me, use a double jab to work a space to get inside again then body body body. Rinse and repeat as much as possible. Nothing slows a big man like his ribs starting to ache and burn and if you can get a few shots to graze above his hips then his mobility will falter too.

He leans on me then use an aggressive defence to make any leaning he tries costly to him and to make him wary of trying that as a tactic to sap energy and remove the speed advantage.

All easier said than done as the bigger man will be trying to use his own advantages whilst you trying to do your thing, and all pretty much text book dealing with a bigger taller man tactics, but you are not going to blast a bigger man out of there unless you have freakish power or he is a much lower calibre fighter than you.


Usyk cannot copy Ruiz though. Ruiz had good had speed, good foot work and above average skills and boxed a lot better than he looks physically but what Ruiz has that Usyk does not is the ability to use all the weight of a 20 stone frame when he hits and when he pushes in. And Ruiz is not a small man either, he just looks squat due to his weight. He is only an inch shorter than Usyk to put his height in context. So his is a lump of a man to hit and to be hit by.


Me I would love to hear Sunday morning that Usyk won because that would be there is a very good and well executed tactical plan to watch in one of the replays of the fight, but I fully expect it to look like a cruiserweight against a heavyweight and when leather starts landing one will be hitting like a cruiser and one like a heavyweight.

If Joshua does lose this................then watch out for a hell of a lot of excuses, not so much on the night but in the weeks that follow. And Usyk will ne paintyed as the ultinate threat in the buid to the rematch. But I don't see that happening.


And yes I went off on a few tangents so nyerr nyerr.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Maybe more like Bob? Football ended when McMahon retired and I want to see players deliberately break other players legs. Almost verbatim to "Hagler was the last great fighter and even at 60 would knock out a prime Roy Jones or Jermaine Taylor".

Prime Hagler beats prime JT. Not even close for me.

Against Prime Roy Jones jr would be a cracking fight. Think Hagler breaks him up inside later on, but would have to work really hard with Jones jr to get in a position to beat him late on. Jones jr is difficult to discount against any middeweight in history though. He is one of the all time greats at that weight imo as he had crazy skills and crazy physical traits.


And just to maybe be controversial, I think Andre Ward beats Jones Jr on points at super middleweight

[jonnygrunter]

Good thread fellas, very interesting to read opinions of those much more in the know than me

[labourRed]

Yup, top posting gents (jaco, hope the treatment is going well fella).

Surprised a few were dug out for being down on the heavys. Surely everyone agrees this era is amongst the worst there's ever been, certainly in living memory.

I think a double header of Joshua and Fury would be at least interesting due to their styles. But not much interest elsewhere.

Obviously going to watch tonight (not for 25notes mind you). Just think Usyk is just too light to cause Joshua much trouble and I don't think he'll handle the power Joshua will bring.

Really good video on Fury a page or so back. That series Neville is doing is generally very interesting actually.

[Doc_Piptorious]

I'm just shocked there were no takers on my Andre Ward beats Roy Jones Jr at Super Middleweight comment


Two guys who in their own way had some freakishly good physical gifts outside of their very high quality skill sets.

[fidget]

lol Hatton gets the decision.

[spud_gun]

C'mon you're surely not surprised by that?

[Buzzo]

...

[labourRed]

Usyk is not making up the numbers but a predictable start.