England's Summer of Cricket against Sri Lanka and India

[RichC]

I'd suggest the likes of Waugh, Kapil Dev, Ponting, Dhoni and Lloyd would disagree with Captains being over-rated!

[captainfog]

I'd suggest the likes of Waugh, Kapil Dev, Ponting, Dhoni and Lloyd would disagree with Captains being over-rated!

Dhoni?!?!?! Hahaha!

Cricket sides become great if they have great players, not because they have great captains.

[Buzzo]

Dhoni?!?!?! Hahaha!

Cricket sides become great if they have great players, not because they have great captains.

I disagree - it is definitely helpful, maybe even essential to have a great captain. Field placings and bowling changes are all going to be dictated by a captain. Look at Flintoff - he just bowled himself into submission when he captained. But someone has to be in charge, or to take charge.

Vaughan was a great captain - look at the 2005 ashes. Some of the bowling changes and field placings won matches (his use of Simon Jones in particular). Great teams need great players - goes without saying, but you need someone to rally the troops. Someone to make the tough decisions, and listen to advice, but choose the tactics which best suit the situation -someone who has to ultimately be respected.

Englands problem just now is they want 'yes men' guys who won't rock the boat. In any great team (in any industry) you need people to challenge the status-quo, to endeavour to improve. You won't do that with a load of your mates blowing smoke up each others arses saying it will all be alright in the end, a system where no one has the courage to speak out or point out what is wrong.

Some of the examples given may not be the best captains of all time. But they are a damn site better than Cook. And though it was Mitchell Johnson who tore England a new one, I'll guarantee he had a coach and captain in his ear telling him how good he was, reinforcing his ability after he got battered all over the park the previous summer.

[captainfog]

I said they are overrated, not irrelevant

[captainfog]

To elaborate further, you are describing basic leadership qualities not some rare gift.

**** teams need great leaders, great teams can get away with average ones. Didn't take a genius to throw Swann the ball or watch KP score hundreds. Same with Smith with SA, how good was he really? Impossible to judge because you'd have to be a right joey to not win series with the likes of De Villiers, Kallis, Amla, Stein and Morkal in your side.

[Buzzo]

I said they are overrated, not irrelevant

Well I still disagree, I think they are crucial - with the same points

Show me a great team with a crap captain?

Any team that achieves anything of consequence has had a great leader, and I'll back that up with the Ashes, as though England have won a few, the one that was really impressive was 2005, against a really strong Aussie team, that will be the Ashes that everyone remembers in 10 years.

[captainfog]

See above

[captainfog]

Another example: Dhoni is a bang average test captain and he got to number one in the world. Why? because he had an amazing group of players under him.

[Buzzo]

Exception rather than rule.

Great teams have great captains.

Dhoni is also captaining in pretty average era of test cricket, and I don't think this is a 'great' India team, they are being made to look good.

Dhoni has though won India only their second test match in history at Lords. And you could argue that it was his instruction to bowl bouncers that did for England.

(ok - you could also argue that England fell into one of the most obvious traps ever set out in test match History).

[captainfog]

Dhoni is a pretty rubbish captain. Lets games drift and is often roundly criticised for is tactics.

[Buzzo]

To elaborate further, you are describing basic leadership qualities not some rare gift.

**** teams need great leaders, great teams can get away with average ones. Didn't take a genius to throw Swann the ball or watch KP score hundreds. Same with Smith with SA, how good was he really? Impossible to judge because you'd have to be a right joey to not win series with the likes of De Villiers, Kallis, Amla, Stein and Morkal in your side.

I suspect we could go on for ever ... However.

With Smith the very fact that he could manage the egos and marshall the talents suggests he did a good job as captain.

I suspect we almost agree here, I will concede that having an immense team makes captaincy easier, however I do believe that a truly great team requires a truly great leader. Leading is not for everyone (See A. N. Cook), and a bad leader can quickly destroy a decent side (again, see A. N. Cook).

PS. Obviously I was describing basic leadership qualities earlier, however not matter how easy it seems to lead any team and follow basic principals with a clear head, it is amazing how tricky it is to do so once you raise your head above the parapet (again see A. N. Cook).

[captainfog]

Re smith it is widely acknowledged in South Africa that it was the coach that sorted out the egos

[Buzzo]

Yes, but he had respect from the entire team. His early performances with the bat and being captain from such a young age, with the successes that the team had.

........Its ****ing exhausting disagreeing with you 'widely acknowledged' FFS.

A strong captain is important in a team.

End Off!!!

[captainfog]

I don't disagree with you that the captain needs to be a strong character. Again you are repeating the same basic leadership skills. Strauss was a strong character, but that is about all he brought to the role.

Anyway, I've solved the captaincy issue. James Taylor.

[RichC]

Thank goodness for that!