A Different England

[PTP]

If gareth barry is so important to the team, we're ****ed from the start.

Agree about Crouch. Heskey picked ahead of him yet again.

- point taken bout barry

[Shaggy]

Thing is Barry is obviously a lot better than he's shown in this tournament. He's come back from an injury and been pitched right back in in the deep end with little or no prep. He's a good player and he's not a specialist holding mid. He never did that Villa and he doesn't just sit for City either.

[PTP]

true - another thing capello got wrong - he is a good player, but he isn't a super star and wasn't worth the risk imo. Any player injured before a tournement is going to struggle - look at torres. - Thats why either parker who should have gone as well or he should have had the bottle to try something different and even say picked carrick in there or gone 4-3-3 with crouch, rooney and defoe, then milner gerrard lampard - anything really - it was the most frustrating thing about england - no other option or plan b or the willingness to try something different or gamble. - regardless of fitness or form capello had decided that rooney/lampard/gerrard/barry were going to start and he would just have to accomodate them - that doesn't happen in any other team.

[Chris]

The Barry situation is really bizarre. He's not got the legs to be a Mascherano, he's not got the nous to be a Hamann, he's not got the passing to be an Alonso yet he apparently is meant to sit there as some sort of vital cog in the England team.

He's a master at nothing.

[The_weatherman]

true - another thing capello got wrong - he is a good player, but he isn't a super star and wasn't worth the risk imo. Any player injured before a tournement is going to struggle - look at torres. - Thats why either parker who should have gone as well or he should have had the bottle to try something different and even say picked carrick in there or gone 4-3-3 with crouch, rooney and defoe, then milner gerrard lampard - anything really - it was the most frustrating thing about england - no other option or plan b or the willingness to try something different or gamble. - regardless of fitness or form capello had decided that rooney/lampard/gerrard/barry were going to start and he would just have to accomodate them - that doesn't happen in any other team.

I think that is spot on, in hindsight someone like Parker would probably have been better at tracking those German runners. It looked like the Germans had pinpointed a weakness in the England team in that they couldn't handle with players running from midfield.

Parker - Gerrard
Lampard

Looks bettar and more compact, or

Parker - Barry
Gerrard

[paulg]

Problem is that we won't learn. We never do. Cos we are Ingerlund.

[PTP]

i think chris's post sums it up pretty well too. - What was barry's job in the central/holding position in midfield - i dont think cappello or barry knew either - it was just a case of play barry cause he is left footed and it means i get to play lampard in the middle and stick gerrard anywhere i can.

An England B team -

-------------------------hart------------------

neville-----------jagielka----dawson---------warnock

walcott----------parker-----carrick----------johnson

------------------Bent--------crouch-------



I'd rather have watched them give it a go against the likes of algeria - at least then when we draw 0-0 we can say "well we didn't have rooney/lampard/terry/gerrard/barry etc"

and tbh - i'd still back that 2nd team to beat algeria - how the **** did we get it so wrong.

[The_weatherman]

i think chris's post sums it up pretty well too. - What was barry's job in the central/holding position in midfield - i dont think cappello or barry knew either - it was just a case of play barry cause he is left footed and it means i get to play lampard in the middle and stick gerrard anywhere i can.

An England B team -

-------------------------hart------------------

neville-----------jagielka----dawson---------warnock

walcott----------parker-----carrick----------johnson

------------------Bent--------crouch-------



I'd rather have watched them give it a go against the likes of algeria - at least then when we draw 0-0 we can say "well we didn't have rooney/lampard/terry/gerrard/barry etc"

and tbh - i'd still back that 2nd team to beat algeria - how the **** did we get it so wrong.

Still one thing, which other top international team plays 4-4-2? It leaves teams too open and against good teams you can't take those chances, I think you have to go for 4-5-1 or 4-2-3-1, England doesn't have it in them to play 4-3-3 either IMO.

[PTP]

yeah fair point

------------hart----------

neville-----dawson---jagielka---warnock

-----------carrick----parker---------

-walcott---------wilshere----------------johnson

------------------crouch----------------

[Craig_H]

If england hadnt had so many injuries at CB, 532 would've been perfect for them.

3 centre backs plus a holding midfielder to protect the goal, leaving the fullbacks with licence to push forward and offer width and attacking threat. Aided by two attacking centre midfielders and two strikers.

Something like:

James

Terry King Ferdinand
Johnson...............................A.Cole
Barry

Gerrard....Lampard

Rooney.....Defoe

The more i think about it, the more i think this kind of system would be ideal for the players england have. They dont really have top quality wingers, so negate the need for them, by utilising the fullbacks to do the job of adding width - something which is perfectly suited to both Ashley Cole and Glen Johnson. This then means you have enough in central midfield to both help protect the backline and also to push on forwards and support the strikers/add to the goal threat.

You could potentially put Joe Cole in there instead of Lampard or Gerrard, as per the situation and likewise, Crouch could do a job in place of Defoe, depending on the game.

[Neil Young]

Just as no-one good plays 4-4-2, I'm struggling to think of one top team that regularly plays 3-5-2 or 5-3-2. Then again, perhaps everyone will in four years' time.

England has too few good players. Everything else follows from that.

[Craig_H]

It's about a system that best utilises the personnel you've got, and that one is the best suited for england's players. They have no proven quality wingers and struggle to get the best out of Lampard and Gerrard, so playing them in their best positions is the start, followed by removing the ineffective wingers they DO opt for.

[PTP]

it does look better

for a start - as you say, not only are england struggling for any genuine quality for left/right mid - but they do happen to be blessed with the perfect left and right wing backs in the the cafu/carlos role - so straight away, use them in that way.

Ok the defence injuries to king/ferdinand didn't help - but had the system be adopted/used for a couple of years in the build up then i'd see no problems with a terry and then two of upson/carragher/dawson.

midfield - gerrard now gets to play more centrally - rooney with one of defoe/crouch. No issues there.


so we just come to the central midfield - where a decisions has to be made - do they employ a mascher type play in parker, an alonso in carrick, or a halvey halve in barry alongside lampard.

[The_weatherman]

Just as no-one good plays 4-4-2, I'm struggling to think of one top team that regularly plays 3-5-2 or 5-3-2. Then again, perhaps everyone will in four years' time.

England has too few good players. Everything else follows from that.

I think you are being a bit harsh there, man for man I think England at least matches Germany individually, starting XI that is. But Germany is well setup and the players have a great mentality. I think Podolski's and Klose's combined total goals for last season didn't exceed 5, and Podolski has scored more goals on national level then for clubs.

[Neil Young]

Then you simply end up with different problems, like having three centre backs marking one striker or having one of them go into midfield and being all at sea because they don't know what they're doing there, the midfield being outnumbered or whatever.

Outdated systems might utilise the players better but they're still outdated systems. The reason they're outdated is because good teams have worked oout how to overcome them. So it still won't work.