Racism in Football

[Vermilion]

To be honest, comparing racism to taking the piss out of someone for having a big nose is a rather ridiculous comparison. Were generations of people ever sold into slavery or treated as sub-human because of the shape of their nose? Of course discriminating against anyone for any difference they have to you is wrong, but can we have some perspective here please?

Oh, and as for the idea of people opposed to racism actually being responsible for racism I have issues with the way a few, well publicised things have happened in the world of football recently, but what would we rather, that nobody challenged those who actually hold and espouse racist views?

I am merely saying that an insult aimed at someone for how they look, who can't change the way they were made, is as bad or hurtful as that person takes it.

:edit: @Darkon. No anti semetic thing going on.

[Kenneth]

i don't believe in any kind of supernatural evil. all we have are our actions really. if there is any kind of satan it's to be found in racism, homophobia and sexism. stuff like that which becomes institutionalized, dehumanizes people, leads to all kinds of different slavery and drives wedges between people. attractiveness you could say is similar, although generally it's not legally codified. it certainly plays a big part in life though, and sometimes it's quite unfair.

any time one group of people decide they have a right to dominate another group, then yeah. i'd say that's pretty negative and evil. affects way more people than murder.

I agree. Its the distinction between actions and thoughts that prompted my question really.

[Fosterbloke]

To be honest, comparing racism to taking the piss out of someone for having a big nose is a rather ridiculous comparison. Were generations of people ever sold into slavery or treated as sub-human because of the shape of their nose? Of course discriminating against anyone for any difference they have to you is wrong, but can we have some perspective here please?

Oh, and as for the idea of people opposed to racism actually being responsible for racism I have issues with the way a few, well publicised things have happened in the world of football recently, but what would we rather, that nobody challenged those who actually hold and espouse racist views?

I don't think people became slaves because they were black, it was because there existed an easy supply of labour based in a continent inhabited by black skinned people.

Slavery has nothing to do with it.

[Darkon]

I'd seriously recommend you reading

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Liberalism-A-Counter-History-Domenico-Losurdo/dp/1844676935/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355390894&sr=8-1

[MrMichael]

I don't think people became slaves because they were black, it was because there existed an easy supply of labour based in a continent inhabited by black skinned people.

Slavery has nothing to do with it.

That's ridiculous. Part of the justification for slavery at the time was that slaves (ie black people) were inferior beings. You cannot completely separate slavery from racism in the history of Afro-Caribbean ethnicities. This is beside the point anyway, I could have used a million other things to justify my point that you cannot compare racism to having a big nose. I genuinely can't believe anyone would think you can.

[Fosterbloke]

That's ridiculous. Part of the justification for slavery at the time was that slaves (ie black people) were inferior beings. You cannot completely separate slavery from racism in the history of Afro-Caribbean ethnicities. This is beside the point anyway, I could have used a million other things to justify my point that you cannot compare racism to having a big nose. I genuinely can't believe anyone would think you can.

Was it because they were biologically inferior or because they were technologically inferior? Perhaps one infers the other?

I guess it's the same way we look at Chavs? Same colour skin but we feel superior to them because of our more cultured ways so we mock them?

What about red heads?

[Vermilion]

That's ridiculous. Part of the justification for slavery at the time was that slaves (ie black people) were inferior beings. You cannot completely separate slavery from racism in the history of Afro-Caribbean ethnicities. This is beside the point anyway, I could have used a million other things to justify my point that you cannot compare racism to having a big nose. I genuinely can't believe anyone would think you can.

I wasn't 'comparing' it to racism as a subject/issue/problem, i was just stating a point, that singling out someone for how they look is just as nasty in isolation, i'm not exactly saying it's as big an issue in society.

[fred_plasticine]

Was it because they were biologically inferior or because they were technologically inferior? Perhaps one infers the other?

I guess it's the same way we look at Chavs? Same colour skin but we feel superior to them because of our more cultured ways so we mock them?

What about red heads?

i find it quite astonishing that there is such gross ignorance on the history of racism and slaverly. i don't mean ignorance in any derogatory way. i just thought that there was more of an understanding of what the issue is all about and the history behind it. especially in a country with such a long colonial "tradition".

[Captain Stu]

The only person allowed to talk about the history of racism is John Barnes.

That is all.

[TheElephantMan]

The only person allowed to talk about the history of racism is John Barnes.

That is all.

I'd agree that he expressed views which were infinitely more sensible than the knee-jerk crap offered by the anti-racism lobbyists. It isn't a crime to think in a particular way regardless of how that is perceived by others. As a society we quite rightly should oppose racism, but we mustn't fall into the trap of isolating people who disagree. If we keep repeating the lie that football is intrinsically racist then we're agreeing with the self-serving anti-racist campaigners who in spite of racism being their chosen specialist subject seem to have no answers and bring nothing positive to the table. I'm personally completely ****ed off with the whole thing and my views on racism have softened in a weird way. I have more empathy with people who hold racist views than I did. Those competing for the loftiest moral high ground are only interested in their own gains, nothing to do with the genuine battle against racism in society.

[Kenneth]

i find it quite astonishing that there is such gross ignorance on the history of racism and slaverly. i don't mean ignorance in any derogatory way. i just thought that there was more of an understanding of what the issue is all about and the history behind it. especially in a country with such a long colonial "tradition".

But if everyone was ignorant of it, then the impact of racism against black people would be massively reduced. More ignorance not less, it's the future.

[Fosterbloke]

But if everyone was ignorant of it, then the impact of racism against black people would be massively reduced. More ignorance not less, it's the future.

The less you know the better you sleep...

[Norbs]

nobody ever said you had to hate anybody. speaking personally, my father was quite racist once upon a time. then my sisters and i all went to black schools, and our mindset changed. slowly but surely we managed to chip away at my father until he understood that ****** jokes aren't cool. i'm proud to say he voted for obama recently, which i never saw coming. the point is we didn't argue, but explained that there are limits in existence and they're there for a good reason about what's acceptable behavior towards people of other races. i don't like chancers who use campaigns to make a name for themselves, but i've got way more time for them than i have for unapologetic racists.

What is a black school?

[Red_Polo]

Doesn't taking the piss out of fat people or people with big noses do exactly the same though ?

It's about how a person is made to feel surely, regardless of what insult is used ?

No to both.

Slavery and genocide were pretty clearly not just hurting feelings.

Same goes for the softer face of racism, such as people not getting jobs they ought to get on merit.

[Kenneth]

Of course, but for the individual on the receiving end of racial abuse (the context here) then its a matter of the degree of hurt feelings. Cultural and social history plays a part, which isn't felt by big noses, but that probably isn't the sole, or possibly not the primary cause of the insult.

On the topic of the impact of the anti racism campaign in football, overall it had a positive effect, util the Suarez case. The hysteria since has made things worse. It has lead to an increase in racist incidents at grounds by fans and has been self perpetuating. The focus has made the problem worse which has increased the focus further to the point of hysteria.