Racism in Football

[Helios Creed]

People do have racist views, we can't beat it out of them.

We can let them know that it's not normal or acceptable though. Otherwise they (and their kids) will assume it is.

I agree that, for example, monkey gestures by supporters, seem to be becoming more common as a result of the publicity (or more reported?) - but if you try to wipe something out, it will fight back. Hopefully not for long.

[Red_Polo]

Kenneth-

Again, I disagree. It's massively different.

Racist jokes (as opposed to jokes about race) don't just hurt feelings, they act to subjugate.

With jokes about big noses there tends not to be any process of subjugation in existence to further or enforce.

[Kenneth]

Where did subject of jokes come from?

[Helios Creed]

I'd agree that he expressed views which were infinitely more sensible than the knee-jerk crap offered by the anti-racism lobbyists. It isn't a crime to think in a particular way regardless of how that is perceived by others. As a society we quite rightly should oppose racism, but we mustn't fall into the trap of isolating people who disagree. If we keep repeating the lie that football is intrinsically racist then we're agreeing with the self-serving anti-racist campaigners who in spite of racism being their chosen specialist subject seem to have no answers and bring nothing positive to the table. I'm personally completely ****ed off with the whole thing and my views on racism have softened in a weird way. I have more empathy with people who hold racist views than I did. Those competing for the loftiest moral high ground are only interested in their own gains, nothing to do with the genuine battle against racism in society.

Paedophiles get a raw deal too and many of them think that it is a natural and harmless lifestyle that should be decriminalised.

Are you saying that segregation should be allowed, if that's how people feel - they shouldn't have to let black people in their cafe or whatever, if they don't like them?

That said , the society of black lawyers or whatever they are called are really not helping IMO.

[Red_Polo]

Where did subject of jokes come from?

The 'taking the piss' comment I was replying to.

So I don't mean a Jew, an Arab and a Mexican walk into a bar I mean racist jokes directed to a particular person, at their expense.

[Kenneth]

Finish the joke then

[Red_Polo]

Nicey's sat at the bar, says they all look a bit gay and they combine forces against him, it all goes a bit United Colours of Benetton. Nicey flies a rainbow flag outside the pub. Fin.

[Vermilion]

No to both.

Slavery and genocide were pretty clearly not just hurting feelings.

Same goes for the softer face of racism, such as people not getting jobs they ought to get on merit.

I'm talking about the individual!

Are you telling me a person insulted for having a big nose or for being ugly or fat can't feel worse about it than an individual black person who gets called 'Blackie' for instance ?

People kill themselves over such things ffs, are made to feel like they are inferior human beings because of how they look.

I am clearly not saying it is as bad as racism in society, just that to an individual it can be as damaging or even worse.

That was my point, i don't see how it can be argued. Subjugation doesn't just happen to races, it happens to individuals too, if that's how they feel when abused.

[Red_Polo]

I'm talking about the individual!

Are you telling me a person insulted for having a big nose or for being ugly or fat can't feel worse about it than an individual black person who gets called 'Blackie' for instance ?

People kill themselves over such things ffs, are made to feel like they are inferior human beings because of how they look.

I am clearly not saying it is as bad as racism in society, just that to an individual it can be as damaging or even worse.

That was my point, i don't see how it can be argued.

No, I am not making any of those points you suggest.

I am saying that when it comes to racism, it is not only hurting someone's feelings that is at play, so it's not "exactly the same".

[Vermilion]

No, I am not making any of those points you suggest.

I am saying that when it comes to racism, it is not only hurting someone's feelings that is at play, so it's not "exactly the same".

The exactly the same quote was in reply to your below post.

It relegates people to second class status through knowing and unknowing discrimination. Surely that's clear?

I think insulting people for how they are made and look, does do the same, on an individual basis..

[Red_Polo]

Subjugation doesn't just happen to races, it happens to individuals too, if that's how they feel when abused.

Yes, that's true.

That's why I say there tends not to be a process of subjugation at play.

If someone has been relentlessly singled out because of their big nose then it changes things. But you can't draw the parallel within the context of a casual one-off remark about a big nose vs race, because issues of racial subjugation are pervasive to our consciousness. The idea of subjugation on basis of having a large honker, on the other hand, requires some additional context to prime the jibe for it to have that effect.

[Vermilion]

Yes, that's true.

That's why I say there tends not to be a process of subjugation at play.

If someone has been relentlessly singled out because of their big nose then it changes things. But you can't draw the parallel within the context of a casual one-off remark about a big nose vs race, because issues of racial subjugation are pervasive to our consciousness. The idea of subjugation on basis of having a large honker, on the other hand, requires some additional context to prime the jibe for it to have that effect.

I disagree, but this is going round in circles, with my point and what i was attempting to say seemingly being missed, i'm off to the footy forums where i can do less damage. .

[Red_Polo]

I think insulting people for how they are made and look, does do the same, on an individual basis..

I didn't say only racism did that though did I?!

I said it in response to someone suggesting there was nothing wrong with racism beyond offending.

Your assertion was that something like calling someone a big nosed **** does exactly the same. I'd suggest that's wrong, because as I explained above there is an immediate and obvious context for racist jibes to call on that is not necessarily in existence when mocking someone's appearance.

[Red_Polo]

I disagree, but this is going round in circles, with my point and what i was attempting to say seemingly being missed, i'm off to the footy forums where i can do less damage. .

Fair enough

I don't think anyone should be discouraged from talking about **** like this though. Especially if it means they have to visit the football forum

[Vermilion]

I didn't say only racism did that though did I?!

I said it in response to someone suggesting there was nothing wrong with racism beyond offending.

Your assertion was that something like calling someone a big nosed **** does exactly the same. I'd suggest that's wrong, because as I explained above there is an immediate and obvious context for racist jibes to call on that is not necessarily in existence when mocking someone's appearance.

Is'nt the context for absuing someone because of how they look, peoples assumption that they are different, that someone is ugly, or having a big nose is odd, or being fat is horrible and they're a lesser human being for being that way ?

Seems pretty prevelant in society, that way of thinking ?

edit: Now look, this is far too early in the morning for me to have discussions of this nature, i'm having to engage my brain far too much for my liking, i really am off back to the footy forums to act the goat.

edit:

Fair enough

I don't think anyone should be discouraged from talking about **** like this though. Especially if it means they have to visit the football forum