Xabi Alonso and our lack of goals

[dww]

A very common sight. And I think someone made reference to it the other day that the team benefits from having two holding players behind Gerrard so that he can burst forward and we still have cover if the opposition counters. Makes sense I think.

I suspect Gerrard is best used in a Mourinho style 4-1-2-2-1/4-3-3 whatever you want to call it formation as one of the two more attacking CMs. However I do think he can to an excellent job for us as part of a controlling CM pairing who bursts forwards but he does need to be willing to dash back and the rest of the team probably need to commit players more when attacking to help prevent counter attacks. United don't do much active defending high up the pitch in a lot of games largely because of the fear other teams have of being exposed at the back.

[bazza76]

Yes I think he vacates positions too much

LOL @ playing right fullback in the CL final, he had cramp he couldnt ****ing move so of course he would be disciplined

I have seen VERY few games were Gerrard has maintained his discipline as I said earlier hes very like Steve McMahon, hes tough tackling all action but I dont think he has the nous or discipline to ever do the holding role

It doesnt diminish him as a player but I dont see him doing an adequate enough job in that position

LOL @ cramp, it certainly didn't seem that way after we equalized when he was bombing up and down making last ditch tackles
Of course, it was obvious later on when we went into extra time and the entire team was suffering.
As for you not seeing him as adequate enough, I can guarintee you one thing, had Maureen or Ferguson or even Wenger had the chance to sign Gerrard, there is only one position he would be playing, and thats central midfield Roy Keane style at Man United.

[Dhav]

So you think that he would vacate his position too often?.
He played as a right fullback for us in the Champions league and was very disciplined, he has done so in a central midfield position in the past too.
Houllier had a big part in the Gerrard we see today, he gave him the license to be that player. I still think Gerrard is professional enough to do a holding role, only if he plays there regularly enough, and having said tha, it will probably the position he retires into.

hardly an old dog though, I know I said earlier that Xabi is more disciplined in that role, but I do say that because he is more accustomed to it.
I guess there is no way of proving who is right and who is wrong, unless he is played there regularly enough.

Understand what you're saying - but the role that you describe requires discipline and game intelligence, neither of which Gerrard has shown to have in abundance. I dont think playing RB in extra time in the CL final is the best example of his discipline given how tired he would have been, how he had his hands full keeping Serginho at bay and how difficult it is to get into the area from that posiiton.

Like you say, impossible to know for sure unless he was re-trained and was given that role. Might work I guess, especially in the latter stages of his career when his legs will hinder him from getting up and down the way he does now. But he will struggle to fight his natural inclination to burst forward.

[Lecter]

As for you not seeing him as adequate enough, I can guarintee you one thing, had Maureen or Ferguson or even Wenger had the chance to sign Gerrard, there is only one position he would be playing, and thats central midfield Roy Keane style at Man United.

Well you would then see them have the same complications as England do when they play Gerrard & Lampard together

[dww]

LOL @ cramp, it certainly didn't seem that way after we equalized when he was bombing up and down making last ditch tackles
Of course, it was obvious later on when we went into extra time and the entire team was suffering.
As for you not seeing him as adequate enough, I can guarintee you one thing, had Maureen or Ferguson or even Wenger had the chance to sign Gerrard, there is only one position he would be playing, and thats central midfield Roy Keane style at Man United.

I think that is wrong. Roy Keane was a much more disciplined player. He may well have been given a role akin to that Scholes plays at times or perhaps even that played by Carrick at United last season, where the emphasis is on getting the ball upfield quickly and they are not asked to do the traditional holding role of shielding the defence per se. Another analogy would be the way Vieira played with Silva or Petit - asked to move the ball from attack to defence but with someone there to do the more disciplined job.

Gerrard is a good tackler and has great energy but he is a much more attacking player than Keane ever was.

[Dhav]

All you have done is, probably without even realising it, reiterated that people who don't share your opinion know nothing about football. You have proved NOTHING - it is all about opinions and I respect yours whilst disagreeing with them 100%.
With regards to "people not understanding or appreciating how Rafa sets out his teams".......do you agree 100% with every tactic, team selection and substitution that Rafa makes?? Of course not.

No of course I do not agree 100% with all of Rafa's decisions. But Alonso is probably the key player in Rafa's team, he pulls all the strings in that team, so if you are not happy with Alonso, does that by extension mean you are not happy with the way Rafa sets out the team? You tell me.

You respect my opinions enough to call me an arrogant idiot for holding them? I wish more people showed me that kind of respect

[carheex]

No of course I do not agree 100% with all of Rafa's decisions. But Alonso is probably the key player in Rafa's team, he pulls all the strings in that team, so if you are not happy with Alonso, does that by extension mean you are not happy with the way Rafa sets out the team? You tell me.

You respect my opinions enough to call me an arrogant idiot for holding them? I wish more people showed me that kind of respect

You're confused. I never called you an arrogant idiot on the strength of your opinions. It was based on the fact that you insulted other people and had the audacity to accuse them of lacking in knowledge, simply because they had a different viewpoint to you. So get your facts straight before attempting to be clever.

I would say that I'm not 100% happy with the way Rafa sets out his teams on occasions. I'm sure he is too. My biggest criticisms would be not dropping alonso when he's been clearly way off form and not being bold enough in his mid-game attacking changes. I think Mascherano offers much more than Alonso and we'd be a better team with him as a regular. Does that mean I lack knowledge aswell? No, it means I have a different opinion - isn;t that what these forums are for??

[Lecter]

I think Mascherano offers much more than Alonso and we'd be a better team with him as a regular. Does that mean I lack knowledge aswell?

It also means you havent watched many of the last half dozen games

[Dhav]

You're confused. I never called you an arrogant idiot on the strength of your opinions. It was based on the fact that you insulted other people and had the audacity to accuse them of lacking in knowledge, simply because they had a different viewpoint to you. So get your facts straight before attempting to be clever.

I would say that I'm not 100% happy with the way Rafa sets out his teams on occasions. I'm sure he is too. My biggest criticisms would be not dropping alonso when he's been clearly way off form and not being bold enough in his mid-game attacking changes. I think Mascherano offers much more than Alonso and we'd be a better team with him as a regular. Does that mean I lack knowledge aswell? No, it means I have a different opinion - isn;t that what these forums are for??

Fine, show us you are knowledgeable and explain how the team will line up and play well without Alonso.

Your complaint about Rafa is that Alonso is not dropped when playing badly. What I observe is this - you have your wish now, Alonso is not playing, but we are actually playing worse without him than we did when he was in the team playing poorly. Care to explain? Or perhaps offer a sugegstion as to how a team without Alonso can do better than it is doing currently?

[AFII]

I don't think it's only down to missing Alonso. We are missing our only central defender that can carry the ball out of the defense.

[Lecter]

I don't think it's only down to missing Alonso. We are missing our only central defender that can carry the ball out of the defense.

When Alonso plays he drops off picks up the ball off the back four and starts building attacks

When Agger plays he has the ability to bring out the ball from the back four

Take one of them out of the team and it makes the oppositions job easier as they only have one player to close down, take both of them out and not only dont they have to close down any playmaker but they also have the luxury of knowing the other players along our back four will more than likely look to launch it rather than carry it out or play short passes out to build attacks

We have missed both players BUT I believe Alonso's influence is far greater than Aggers

[AFII]

When Alonso plays he drops off picks up the ball off the back four and starts building attacks

When Agger plays he has the ability to bring out the ball from the back four

Take one of them out of the team and it makes the oppositions job easier as they only have one player to close down, take both of them out and not only dont they have to close down any playmaker but they also have the luxury of knowing the other players along our back four will more than likely look to launch it rather than carry it out or play short passes out to build attacks

We have missed both players BUT I believe Alonso's influence is far greater than Aggers

I only said that it was a combination of both. It will hurt any team if they get their defensive and midfield engine injured at the same time.

[carheex]

Fine, show us you are knowledgeable and explain how the team will line up and play well without Alonso.

Your complaint about Rafa is that Alonso is not dropped when playing badly. What I observe is this - you have your wish now, Alonso is not playing, but we are actually playing worse without him than we did when he was in the team playing poorly. Care to explain? Or perhaps offer a sugegstion as to how a team without Alonso can do better than it is doing currently?

Coincidence. We've played superbly without him before and won/lost games. We've also played badly without him and won/lost games. You're putting too much emphasis/hope on the return of 1 player is all I'm trying to say. On your planet, the return of 1 player is going to make all the difference - in the real world, it isn't as simple as that. The whole team has been poor for a while, even when the mighty alonso was playing. A few decent results against poor opposition has hidden that fact.

[kewellnthegang]

Yeah, well here's me being an arrogant idiot:- you're an unknowledgeable clown and you can **** right off and take your androgyny fetish with you.

scrap scrap scrap

[bazza76]

Well you would then see them have the same complications as England do when they play Gerrard & Lampard together

In your opinion.
That is not fact.