Rafa's best team in his own mind...

[Alpha]

"Mascherano gives us balance and allows the others to play their own game. It's really important for players like Torres that they can go forward and sometimes forget they need to defend."

[tomasjj]

I saw the following posts later, mate. You are not talking nonsense, that was not what I agreed upon actually...

I reckon SG drops deep more often when with Mascher, but that is just my own observation. SG comes deep, takes the ball off Masch, and then tried some long range passing. Maybe he trusts Xabi more in that role and lets him do his thing? I am just guessing though.
I'd still rather we played Masch with Xabi a bit ahead of him and SG in a more free position with right midfield being his starting position. The Zidane way.

Agree that Xabi lacks mobility, which Masch has, but he seems to be very good at hiding that lack as his positional play and reading of the game is excellent.

You also talk about Alonsos play not being high tempo, if I understand you correctly.
But as I see it Alonso brings a lot of tempo to our play as he is very good at picking the right pass, and, more importantly imo, his passes are usually hit hard to maximise the possibilities of carving out openings for the receiver.

[marcus50bucks]

I saw the following posts later, mate. You are not talking nonsense, that was not what I agreed upon actually...

I reckon SG drops deep more often when with Mascher, but that is just my own observation. SG comes deep, takes the ball off Masch, and then tried some long range passing. Maybe he trusts Xabi more in that role and lets him do his thing? I am just guessing though.
I'd still rather we played Masch with Xabi a bit ahead of him and SG in a more free position with right midfield being his starting position. The Zidane way.

Agree that Xabi lacks mobility, which Masch has, but he seems to be very good at hiding that lack as his positional play and reading of the game is excellent.

You also talk about Alonsos play not being high tempo, if I understand you correctly.
But as I see it Alonso brings a lot of tempo to our play as he is very good at picking the right pass, and, more importantly imo, his passes are usually hit hard to maximise the possibilities of carving out openings for the receiver.

Lovely post fella.

[Alpha]

I saw the following posts later, mate. You are not talking nonsense, that was not what I agreed upon actually...

I reckon SG drops deep more often when with Mascher, but that is just my own observation. SG comes deep, takes the ball off Masch, and then tried some long range passing. Maybe he trusts Xabi more in that role and lets him do his thing? I am just guessing though.
I'd still rather we played Masch with Xabi a bit ahead of him and SG in a more free position with right midfield being his starting position. The Zidane way.

Agree that Xabi lacks mobility, which Masch has, but he seems to be very good at hiding that lack as his positional play and reading of the game is excellent.

You also talk about Alonsos play not being high tempo, if I understand you correctly.
But as I see it Alonso brings a lot of tempo to our play as he is very good at picking the right pass, and, more importantly imo, his passes are usually hit hard to maximise the possibilities of carving out openings for the receiver.

In summary, you could say that Xabi is better when we are in possession of the ball and Masher is better when we are not or when we are turning over possession.

If you want somebody to dictate rhythm and stretch defences with his range of passing, pick Alonso.

If you want a ballwinner to screen the midfield and let our players play their natural game, pick Mascherano.

If you want both, pick both.

[flyboy]

Is this, isnt it?

Pepe
Finnan
Carra
Agger
Arbeloa
Yossi
Gerrard
Masher
Kewell
Kuyt
Torres

If we used Babel on the left and got another good striker, it'd be extremely good. But what does Rafa SEE in Kuyt?

think kuyt takes out rafa's trash....everyday

[dww]

I saw the following posts later, mate. You are not talking nonsense, that was not what I agreed upon actually...

I reckon SG drops deep more often when with Mascher, but that is just my own observation. SG comes deep, takes the ball off Masch, and then tried some long range passing. Maybe he trusts Xabi more in that role and lets him do his thing? I am just guessing though.
I'd still rather we played Masch with Xabi a bit ahead of him and SG in a more free position with right midfield being his starting position. The Zidane way.

Agree that Xabi lacks mobility, which Masch has, but he seems to be very good at hiding that lack as his positional play and reading of the game is excellent.

You also talk about Alonsos play not being high tempo, if I understand you correctly.
But as I see it Alonso brings a lot of tempo to our play as he is very good at picking the right pass, and, more importantly imo, his passes are usually hit hard to maximise the possibilities of carving out openings for the receiver.

I totally agree with you here. Although I think that the key is having Gerrard as part of the right blend of three players behind Torres. He can play either based on the right or centrally if those around him are capable of both offering width and offering something in the box.

Long term I think Babel is ideal for this role - in any of the three positions. However we lack another player who is capable of doing this at the highest level. Benayon has the talent but doesn't quite seem to have the mentality and Kewells lack of pace (and as important, change of pace) has left him short of the ability to do the job against the big boys (although maybe more games will to some degree help this).

Ultimately I think the problem with the Gerrard/Mascher partnership is that Gerrard's understanding of possession football and how to play out from deep is not very instinctual. He therefore tends to come too close to Mascher and attempt too many long balls. Alonso looks much more intelligent in these areas as he has always played that sort of game, whereas Gerrards formative playing years were under Houllier.

[marcus50bucks]

I totally agree with you here. Although I think that the key is having Gerrard as part of the right blend of three players behind Torres. He can play either based on the right or centrally if those around him are capable of both offering width and offering something in the box.

Long term I think Babel is ideal for this role - in any of the three positions. However we lack another player who is capable of doing this at the highest level. Benayon has the talent but doesn't quite seem to have the mentality and Kewells lack of pace (and as important, change of pace) has left him short of the ability to do the job against the big boys (although maybe more games will to some degree help this).

Ultimately I think the problem with the Gerrard/Mascher partnership is that Gerrard's understanding of possession football and how to play out from deep is not very instinctual. He therefore tends to come too close to Mascher and attempt too many long balls. Alonso looks much more intelligent in these areas as he has always played that sort of game, whereas Gerrards formative playing years were under Houllier.

Excellent post.

[Skillz]

I totally agree with you here. Although I think that the key is having Gerrard as part of the right blend of three players behind Torres. He can play either based on the right or centrally if those around him are capable of both offering width and offering something in the box.

Long term I think Babel is ideal for this role - in any of the three positions. However we lack another player who is capable of doing this at the highest level. Benayon has the talent but doesn't quite seem to have the mentality and Kewells lack of pace (and as important, change of pace) has left him short of the ability to do the job against the big boys (although maybe more games will to some degree help this).

Ultimately I think the problem with the Gerrard/Mascher partnership is that Gerrard's understanding of possession football and how to play out from deep is not very instinctual. He therefore tends to come too close to Mascher and attempt too many long balls. Alonso looks much more intelligent in these areas as he has always played that sort of game, whereas Gerrards formative playing years were under Houllier.

I want to see the

-------ALONSO--MASHER-----
GERRARD---------------KEWELL

midfield

[Alpha]

I totally agree with you here. Although I think that the key is having Gerrard as part of the right blend of three players behind Torres. He can play either based on the right or centrally if those around him are capable of both offering width and offering something in the box.

Long term I think Babel is ideal for this role - in any of the three positions. However we lack another player who is capable of doing this at the highest level. Benayon has the talent but doesn't quite seem to have the mentality and Kewells lack of pace (and as important, change of pace) has left him short of the ability to do the job against the big boys (although maybe more games will to some degree help this).

Ultimately I think the problem with the Gerrard/Mascher partnership is that Gerrard's understanding of possession football and how to play out from deep is not very instinctual. He therefore tends to come too close to Mascher and attempt too many long balls. Alonso looks much more intelligent in these areas as he has always played that sort of game, whereas Gerrards formative playing years were under Houllier.

To accomodate three of Alonso, Lucas, Mascherano and Gerrard in the same midfield, I agree totally that we need two players to provide width and to support Torres. Infact, I think I already posted that in another thread. An extra holding midfielder leaves us short in attack giving extra responsibility to our wide-men.

And of course, the Alonso or Masher argument becomes moot if they can both be accomodated.

At times I think Gerrard assumes too much responsibility. It is true that he likes to drop deep and take the ball from his partner, even though Mascherano and Lucas are more than capable (perhaps not Sissoko) of picking a pass. In a system with two holding midfielders already, there is absolutely no need for him to do this.

[Nic83]

To those of you banging on about "space"? Would you not prefer someone who does this AS WELL as something, ANYTHING else?

[carheex]

Disagree, a fit Alonso would be in Rafa's team, no question.

Unfortunately, I agree with that. There can only be a few people on this planet who think Alonso is better than Mascherano and sadly, Rafa is one of them.

[Nic83]

You're persistent, I'll give you that!

[carheex]

You're persistent, I'll give you that!

Likewise my red brother, likewise.

[Alpha]

To those of you banging on about "space"? Would you not prefer someone who does this AS WELL as something, ANYTHING else?

I'm not sure I follow...

[carheex]

Against any team. Alonso is the perfect footballer. He is unreal.

Now you're just being silly!

If Alonso was that great and a dead cert to start in central midfield with Gerrard, then why all the fuss to sign Mascherano? It wouldn't make sense for Rafa to put his job on the line and cause all this fuss over a player just to stick on the bench would it? Maybe Alonso is being sold to finance a key player.....