Xabi Or Masher?...You decide.

[badpiggy]

BF - FWIW - I agree with you. In an ideal world I would want 2 Gerrards patrolling CM for my team - equally capable of attacking and defending. I was one of the first on the old KT to come out and say get rid of Didi (and got slated for it). I actually think Mash (and Alonso for that matter - not seen enough of Lucas yet) can play that role if teh manager will let them. Alonso is very good in the attacking third of the pitch and can tackle as well as most. Mascher has been going on more forward runs in recent games, and looking OK at doing it.

My biggest gripe is that in the modern game, most teams play with one or 2 up at most (occasionally 3), yet when a team goes out with a "Mascherano-type" player in the 1st 11, that effectively means you have 5 defenders looking after 1 or 2 players at most, unless you have 2 really attacking fullbacks. This is why it drives me crazy to see us when we do attack with very often only 1 or 2 players in the penalty area. If the defending team only leaves one play up top, then the maximum number of players you need back is 2: eitehr 2 CBS (who can tackle) or 1 CB, and 1 Mascher-type tackler.

good analysis there brother. but rafa seems to like the idea of a holding and/or destructive midfielder who is just as likely to give the ball away or at least not play constructively in possession. this is one of my big gripes about rafa - so often i've watched us play a game that is all about denying the oppostion room and possession but constantly giving the ball away ourselves. in theory i think xabi is one solution. or maybe just better players who can pass, move and receive the ball in space.

[scouse lad]

Wind up surely

On loan Liverpool midfielder Javier Mascherano admits he wants to join his former teammate at Manchester United with a permanent move to Liverpool unlikely to occur as the American owners are baulking over the £17m price tag set by MSI.

Mascherano - A target for United, Juventus and Real Madrid - wants to play alongside countryman Carlos Tevez once again after their adventures at Corinthians and West Ham.

The holding midfielder, rated at £17million, said: "I would like a new adventure in England because as each day passes it is looking more and more unlikely that I could remain at Liverpool.

“It’s simple,” Mascherano said. “With the time that has passed, it will now be more difficult for me to stay here because I need to do something about my future. It is a really difficult situation because I have been talking a lot about how I want to stay here, but it doesn’t depend on me. I have done everything to stay but the owners have to decide if they want to buy.”

Manchester United boss Ferguson has always been an admirer of Mascherano and considered signing him last summer, and it is being rumoured that he will willing to pay the asking price to land him now.

Mascherano added, "I would be happy to play for any of the other big clubs in England if Liverpool do not sign me permanently, but to play alongside Carlitos as well as people like Rooney, Scholes and Ronaldo would be my biggest dream of all."

[tomasjj]

Wind up surely

On loan Liverpool midfielder Javier Mascherano admits he wants to join his former teammate at Manchester United with a permanent move to Liverpool unlikely to occur as the American owners are baulking over the £17m price tag set by MSI.

Mascherano - A target for United, Juventus and Real Madrid - wants to play alongside countryman Carlos Tevez once again after their adventures at Corinthians and West Ham.

The holding midfielder, rated at £17million, said: "I would like a new adventure in England because as each day passes it is looking more and more unlikely that I could remain at Liverpool.

“It’s simple,” Mascherano said. “With the time that has passed, it will now be more difficult for me to stay here because I need to do something about my future. It is a really difficult situation because I have been talking a lot about how I want to stay here, but it doesn’t depend on me. I have done everything to stay but the owners have to decide if they want to buy.”

Manchester United boss Ferguson has always been an admirer of Mascherano and considered signing him last summer, and it is being rumoured that he will willing to pay the asking price to land him now.

Mascherano added, "I would be happy to play for any of the other big clubs in England if Liverpool do not sign me permanently, but to play alongside Carlitos as well as people like Rooney, Scholes and Ronaldo would be my biggest dream of all."

Thats made up by mancs,mate

[alunevans]

i think this is a great hypothetical (i hope)question because it says a lot about the potential direction of the club. if you value xabi above masher then you are looking to see a more creative liverpool. if it's the other way around, then you must like the cautious approach that rafa takes.

i think that presumes a lot. it depends on how you see masher. personally i think he's a lot better than you give him credit for with the ball. and he's far more mobile than xabi which means he can get forward and still get back sharpish too.

[Kopite_Colin]

good analysis there brother. but rafa seems to like the idea of a holding and/or destructive midfielder who is just as likely to give the ball away or at least not play constructively in possession. this is one of my big gripes about rafa - so often i've watched us play a game that is all about denying the oppostion room and possession but constantly giving the ball away ourselves. in theory i think xabi is one solution. or maybe just better players who can pass, move and receive the ball in space.

Movement is the key, and the ability to able to receive the ball in any situation without panicking. Arsenal do this extremely well - I'm not sure why Rafa doesn't try this more often. Very often our off the ball movement in and around the player in possession is very poor. We hoof the ball far, far too much. Carra, Hyypia & Riise are those most guilty of this.

[alunevans]

Movement is the key, and the ability to able to receive the ball in any situation without panicking. Arsenal do this extremely well - I'm not sure why Rafa doesn't try this more often. Very often our off the ball movement in and around the player in possession is very poor. We hoof the ball far, far too much. Carra, Hyypia & Riise are those most guilty of this.

Spot on but I think of all our players Masher is a masterclass of moving to be available for the ball.

[Kopite_Colin]

good analysis there brother. but rafa seems to like the idea of a holding and/or destructive midfielder who is just as likely to give the ball away or at least not play constructively in possession. this is one of my big gripes about rafa - so often i've watched us play a game that is all about denying the oppostion room and possession but constantly giving the ball away ourselves. in theory i think xabi is one solution. or maybe just better players who can pass, move and receive the ball in space.

I actually think that the players we have now , most would suit the old 1-3-2-2-3 formation, as the fullbacks don't need to attack with 5 forward players. A Dalglish / Beardsley-type to play No. 10 (Diego / Ronaldinho / Messi type), and a Barnes-esque type new No. 11 to replace Kewell. That way we accomodate Mascherano, Alonso & Gerrard in their correct positions, and have enough attacking potential on the pitch to create openings and support Torres. In addition we have enough defenders to accomodate the opposition strikers, and Mascher and Xabi to provide tackling cover. the New CH would need pace to comabt the ball over the top, as neither Mascherano or Xabi have great pace.

----------------------------Reina-------------------------

Carragher--------------Hyypia / New CH-------------Agger
(RB)------------------------(CH)---------------------(LB)

------------Mascherano---------------Alonso---------------
---------------(RH)---------------------(LH)---------------

--------------Gerrard------------------New No. 10----------
----------------(IR)----------------------(IL)--------------


Babel-----------------------Torres----------------New No.11
(RW)------------------------(CF)---------------------(LW)


My genuine question is why do you need a back 4 in the modern game?

[bobbyfallon]

I actually think that the players we have now , most would suit the old 1-3-2-2-3 formation, as the fullbacks don't need to attack with 5 forward players. A Dalglish / Beardsley-type to play No. 10 (Diego / Ronaldinho / Messi type), and a Barnes-esque type new No. 11 to replace Kewell. That way we accomodate Mascherano, Alonso & Gerrard in their correct positions, and have enough attacking potential on the pitch to create openings and support Torres. In addition we have enough defenders to accomodate the opposition strikers, and Mascher and Xabi to provide tackling cover. the New CH would need pace to comabt the ball over the top, as neither Mascherano or Xabi have great pace.

----------------------------Reina-------------------------

Carragher--------------Hyypia / New CH-------------Agger
(RB)------------------------(CH)---------------------(LB)

------------Mascherano---------------Alonso---------------
---------------(RH)---------------------(LH)---------------

--------------Gerrard------------------New No. 10----------
----------------(IR)----------------------(IL)--------------


Babel-----------------------Torres----------------New No.11
(RW)------------------------(CF)---------------------(LW)


My genuine question is why do you need a back 4 in the modern game?

to play 4-4-2

i happen to agree with you i would rather a 3-5-2 if we had carra agger and someone else decent.

[dww]

Very good post that.

The one point I disagree with though is the assertion that we are a less creative team with Mascherano than with Alonso.

Although Masher is less creative individually than Xabi, it is his destructive qualities that allow our other creative players to thrive.

Many teams, especially those with pace, are at their most dangerous during the transition from defence to attack and Masher's ability to turn-over possession so quickly and frequently, provides more opportunities for our quick, creative players to break quickly and take advantage of space. Not only that but the level of security he provides allows those quick, creative players to advance in numbers.

I wouldn't venture to suggest that we are more creative with Masher than Alonso but El Jefe allows us to be creative in a way that Xabi doesn't. And vice versa.

By the way, I voted that is was too painful to choose.

Right I know we have had this discussion on the Mascher-Alonso thread but I have realised that the position I took is actually dependent on the other players we have in the line up.

I really do believe that currently we are currently less creative with Gerrard and Mascher together in the middle. I believe that without wide players who can offer options deep and then get forward for a quick counter Gerrard ends up coming deep to collect the ball from Mascher too much - this means that we end up playing too many long balls and that chances of attacks are waisted.

However I would like to make the point that I firmly disagree with the two midfielders like Gerrard comment made by someone else. It would have many of the same problems as the Gerrard-Lampard combination has for England IMO, albeit better at tackling. It is also a mistake in my eyes to view a holding midfield player like Mascher or Hargreaves as the same limited to pure defending beast as say Phil Neville. Players like the former can have a big influence on how you can attack by offering neat short passes to players on the counter and also switching the play intelligently and this combined with the right wide players can indeed result in an overall boost in creativity or attacking play - essentially related to their allowing these players graeter freedom.

At present though I believe that the Alonso-Gerrard partnership offer the best combination as Alonso's longer range passing allows us to get the ball into dangerous areas more quickly if our wide players don't have the pace or positional skills to start deep and begin attacks.

In some ways this argument is related to my claim last year that with Alonso Arsenal would win the league. My reasoning for this was that there was too big a gap between their attacking midfield of Fabregas, Hleb and Rosicky and defense and that the limited passing and lack of pace of Gilberto didn't allow them to bridge it. The improvement in Fabregas this season has fixed this problem and you no longer hear Wenger talking about trying to improve Fabregas defensively. The difference here is obviously that the Arsenal players simply are all attacking minded and are better playing purely further up the pitch whereas ours don't presently have the levels of ability IMO. The key similarity for me is that having a better passer deep rather than a better defender released the attacking players.

Overall my favoured solution is Alonso and Mascher in the middle and Gerrard ahead of them. The problem is that in my view you need to have 4 consistent goal threats in a team to win the league. This formation means that the two wide players even more than the other formations need to chip in and at times operate close to the forward (the latter to allow Gerrard to come from deeper which has already been noted is his strength) and at present our players show no sign of being able to do this. Although I do thikn that Benayoun and Babel could do it to some degree and if Kewell can get back to his previous best (unlikely I know) so could he.

[badpiggy]

i think that presumes a lot. it depends on how you see masher. personally i think he's a lot better than you give him credit for with the ball. and he's far more mobile than xabi which means he can get forward and still get back sharpish too.

you should see gilesy's analysis on rte - i'd say he could release a dvd based purely on masher's lack of movement to get into good space and use the ball.

[Frank Leroux]

you should see gilesy's analysis on rte - i'd say he could release a dvd based purely on masher's lack of movement to get into good space and use the ball.

Indeed.

I agree with your concern over this new 'holding' or 'defensive' midfielder role. Giles (imo the most knowledgable and insightful pundit in the media) has shown time and again how Mascherano either doesn't position himself to take a pass or if he does does very little creatively/in a forward-looking direction with it. Makelele the same. Hamann to some extent.

Whether this is Mascherano's doing or the managers I don't know.

In the old days your central mid's could pass, tackle, shoot, defend ala Vieira, Keane - even Alonso...because they had to to be able to dictate play. Maybe the quicker game dictates splitting the midfield into your half and the opponents but a specialist midfielder like a Mascherano seems to me to be handing the initiative to the opposition from the off.

Alonso and Lucas in the middle with Gerrard (still) on the left and Kewell on the right for me....

[tomasjj]

It worked splendidly for the Chavs with Makelele, so just because Giles says Mascher doesn't do this as well as he prefers doesn't necessarily mean that this system won't work.

And like dww says above:

It is also a mistake in my eyes to view a holding midfield player like Mascher or Hargreaves as the same limited to pure defending beast as say Phil Neville. Players like the former can have a big influence on how you can attack by offering neat short passes to players on the counter and also switching the play intelligently and this combined with the right wide players can indeed result in an overall boost in creativity or attacking play - essentially related to their allowing these players graeter freedom.

[CAD]

We look and play like the colur grey everytime we field Alonso and Mascher in the same game. I have a hard time understanding why a LFC fan would consider that a prefered lineup...?

[Frank Leroux]

It worked splendidly for the Chavs with Makelele, so just because Giles says Mascher doesn't do this as well as he prefers doesn't necessarily mean that this system won't work.

And like dww says above:

It is also a mistake in my eyes to view a holding midfield player like Mascher or Hargreaves as the same limited to pure defending beast as say Phil Neville. Players like the former can have a big influence on how you can attack by offering neat short passes to players on the counter and also switching the play intelligently and this combined with the right wide players can indeed result in an overall boost in creativity or attacking play - essentially related to their allowing these players graeter freedom.

By the same token a player like Alonso can be as disruptive to the opposition when defending as a Mascherano-type player.

When I see Mascherano threading incisive passes through to the on-running Babel or Benayoun I might revise my opinion - but I haven't seen this part of his game yet.

17m for a player that is required to pass the ball 10 yards and disrupt the opponents attacks...now that's inflation.

[alunevans]

you should see gilesy's analysis on rte - i'd say he could release a dvd based purely on masher's lack of movement to get into good space and use the ball.

well i sit and watch him week in week out and all i see is a lad constantly making himself available in a way that no other player does. so i don't buy gilesy's analysis at all.