Xabi Alonso - the enigma

[JohnDoe]

Mashers job is to break up the oppositions play and then give the ball to players in the team with more attacking skills than he has.

But when Alonso and Gerrard started together at the beginning of the season, Xabi did what Mascherano does today AND more. When he's on the pitch Gerrard is not in charge of the game and we become a better side.

SG can be erratic at times but thats because the side look to him to break the opposition down. He's our most creative player and and such is always going to lose possession at times because he's trying to unlock the oppositions defence. Those sort of passes are always more risky.

'Gerrard' and 'creativity' are words that have nothing to do with each other. Gerrard is a great attacking player but he doesn't have the footballing brain to take charge of a match and be able to control its pace. He doesn't know how to slow a game down. He's the adrenaline of the team, not the brain. Gerrard does not unlock defences, he throws the keys and tears down the door.

[Armchairkopite]

Excellent posts there John Doe, i agree 100% with you about(the infallable) Stevie G, one of the things with Stevie is he gets a bit lost when he plays off the front man maybe Rafa was right at the start giving him the right side of midfield to work, as i said earlier if his ego will let him.
Imo when we play weaker sides and all our home games we should play Xabi and Stevie in the centre there should be no need for Masherano in the middle when we are at home unless Xabi or Stevie is injured, but when we play the likes of away to the Scum play Stevie and Babel on the flanks and keep Masherano and Xabi in the centre.

[Alpha]

It is very nice to be able to keep possession of the ball. It seems like a good idea to have a deep-lying playmaker, distributing cultured passes, allowing your team to dominate the ball and dictate the game.

The reason why so many of us were seduced by Alonso's ball-keeping/ball-playing excellence was because it was the antidote to the Houllier anti-football that we had suffered for so long.

So let's assume that Alonso does return to form. Let's assume we sign players who give him the options he needs, let's assume opposition managers forget about his threat and let's assume our attacking players start offering the movement he needs.

Will we then start challenging for the Premiership?

My answer is no. Because Alonso's possession football is not enough. Sometimes it is necessary to risk losing the ball, sometimes it is more effective to try and force the ball in the net, particularly against those inferior sides who can do nothing but that and who will drag us down to their level by doing anything they can to stop us playing.

[redblood]

It is very nice to be able to keep possession of the ball. It seems like a good idea to have a deep-lying playmaker, distributing cultured passes, allowing your team to dominate the ball and dictate the game.

The reason why so many of us were seduced by Alonso's ball-keeping/ball-playing excellence was because it was the antidote to the Houllier anti-football that we had suffered for so long.

So let's assume that Alonso does return to form. Let's assume we sign players who give him the options he needs, let's assume opposition managers forget about his threat and let's assume our attacking players start offering the movement he needs.

Will we then start challenging for the Premiership?
My answer is no. Because Alonso's possession football is not enough. Sometimes it is necessary to risk losing the ball, sometimes it is more effective to try and force the ball in the net, particularly against those inferior sides who can do nothing but that and who will drag us down to their level by doing anything they can to stop us playing.

Yes because we need world class players who can do just that play clever football and change the direction and tempo of the play and pick a killer pass.
Also score some decent goals.

[Sir Bob]

But when Alonso and Gerrard started together at the beginning of the season, Xabi did what Mascherano does today AND more. When he's on the pitch Gerrard is not in charge of the game and we become a better side.



'Gerrard' and 'creativity' are words that have nothing to do with each other. Gerrard is a great attacking player but he doesn't have the footballing brain to take charge of a match and be able to control its pace. He doesn't know how to slow a game down. He's the adrenaline of the team, not the brain. Gerrard does not unlock defences, he throws the keys and tears down the door.

I have to disagree on both counts.
Alonso has been poor all season in my view and is not as effective in the holding role as Masher.

As for Sg, he's far and away our most creative player. Sometimes its chances he creates for himself, often for others. Take his super pass for torres against Pompey when a hit a brilliant slide rule 40 yard pass for Torres to score. If thats not creative passing, using your brain then I don't know what is.

I really fail to understand the stick the captain gets sometimes. He's far and away our best player. If he things are bad now, imagine the state we'd be in without him.

[Sir Bob]

Yes because we need world class players who can do just that play clever football and change the direction and tempo of the play and pick a killer pass.
Also score some decent goals.

It that all we need, some world class players. You could say the same about EFC, Villa, Man C etc. EFC are only 3 or 4 world class players from being a top side, infact nearly every team in the league is.

[AFII]

No one of the other top clubs in the PL plays with a real holding midfielder except us.

Man U play with two of Carrick, Anderson or Hargreaves, three box to box midfielders. Anderson plays as that now.

Chelsea plays with two or three of Essein, Mikel, Lampard, Ballack or Sidwell. No one of them is a holding midfielder.

Arsenal plays with Fabregas, Rosicky, Flamini and Hleb. No one of them is a holding midfielder.

The question is if we can afford to play with one and offer one player that won't offer more or less any attacking threat.

Masch or Xabi, that is the question. One of them offer us a more solid defense, Masch, the other one offer us a better attacking threat, Xabi.

[JohnDoe]

It is very nice to be able to keep possession of the ball. It seems like a good idea to have a deep-lying playmaker, distributing cultured passes, allowing your team to dominate the ball and dictate the game.

The reason why so many of us were seduced by Alonso's ball-keeping/ball-playing excellence was because it was the antidote to the Houllier anti-football that we had suffered for so long.

So let's assume that Alonso does return to form. Let's assume we sign players who give him the options he needs, let's assume opposition managers forget about his threat and let's assume our attacking players start offering the movement he needs.

Will we then start challenging for the Premiership?

My answer is no. Because Alonso's possession football is not enough. Sometimes it is necessary to risk losing the ball, sometimes it is more effective to try and force the ball in the net, particularly against those inferior sides who can do nothing but that and who will drag us down to their level by doing anything they can to stop us playing.

I don't understand your logic and certainly not the lines in bold. You are suggesting that Alonso doesn't take risks, that is not true. Maybe because he's a superior passer, he'll find his man more often than not without needing to take a "risk" but he gets the job done effectively when there is movement in front of him. You are also suggesting that having Alonso in the team takes away from our attacking edge. That is grossly unfair.

Think of Torres and Gerrard (and any decent winger we bring in) as the sharp end of a knife. It's a necessity in order to slit your that pesky chicken's throat, but if you don't have a proper handle for that knife you'll just be cutting your own hand. Without Alonso, or any proper passing midfielder in the middle, we're just a sharp end of a knife without a handle. We're just so awkward when Gerrard drops back and tries "to do something" with the ball 60 yards from goal, soon we attempt long balls, because Gerrard just isn't effective there. He's absolutely lethal 20-30 yards from goal, and that's where I want him to get the ball. I want to take the playmaking burden off Gerrard by having a proper passer behind him, so he doesn't need to drop deep and "carry" us. Alonso helps his game immensely.

Alonso is our best passer of the ball in the team and the most consistent in his delivery, both in his short passing and in his longer efforts. With good wingers who stretch the opposition and take attention away from Torres in the centre, having Alonso in the middle of the pitch bossing the game can spell doom to the opposition. The key is movement and having attacking players with better technique and close control who can quickly take advantage of Alonso's vision and isolate themselves with a defender. Attacking is about creating mis-matches, Gerrard against any player is a mis-match, but Gerrard isn't the one to "spot" that mis-match and set it up.

Other than the last 20-25 yards of the pitch, I'd rather have Alonso with the ball than Gerrard in any situation and in any style of play. It's a no brainer. I'd extend this statement to Lucas as well and urge you to watch the last 10 minutes of the Everton game this year.

[Kopite_Colin]

Alsonso's passing is what makes him special. But to make the most of it you need 2 things: 1) movement (and ability to take, and then lay off, another pass) and 2) width to allow the possibility of a long, defence splitting pass. The way Rafa has set the team up so far we have neither (although it's not for the want of trying Alves, Simao etc.) - and so Alonso's game suffers.

i think you'd see a very different effect with the addition of 2-3 QUALITY Additions in wide areas and up front for LFC.

[ronan]

spot on colin

[JohnDoe]

Take his super pass for torres against Pompey when a hit a brilliant slide rule 40 yard pass for Torres to score.

It was a counter attack where Torres had tons of space to run into. I'm discussing Gerrard's ability to create something against two well organized banks of four when he has the ball 40-50 yards from goal. This is clearly our problem, not our counter attacking ability.

[Sir Bob]

It was a counter attack where Torres had tons of space to run into. I'm discussing Gerrard's ability to create something against two well organized banks of four when he has the ball 40-50 yards from goal. This is clearly our problem, not our counter attacking ability.

And you think alonso can do this?

Sg regularly breaks down teams who defend like this with his surging runs. What we need is some quality width. The way to brak defensive teams down is to stretch them, make their full backs go out wide leaving more space in the last third.

In my view there's nothing much wrong with SG & Masher as a pairing.

[JohnDoe]

And you think alonso can do this?

Clearly, yes. There is no better organizer than Xabi and he increases the effectiveness of our attacks significantly.

[JohnDoe]

Sg regularly breaks down teams who defend like this with his surging runs.

Where? On the halfway line? If you're going to say "near the box", you will find that you agree with me more than you think. You're not describing Gerrard in a situation he has the ball.

What does a surging run have to do with with organizing an offense? Gerrard thrives in a mis-match but who's going to set it up and give him the ball? He can't do both at the same time, can he (pass it to himself)?

[redblood]

It that all we need, some world class players. You could say the same about EFC, Villa, Man C etc. EFC are only 3 or 4 world class players from being a top side, infact nearly every team in the league is.

I was referring to the fact that Alonso is in fact that type of player and selling him would be a mistake because we would and have missed him anytime he's been out.
With the right players to compliment our team he is an essential cog and helps make us tick and to me as I said earlier is a better CM than Masher.