Boro (h) Post match thread

[Rashid]

We'd all like to see more exciting, flowing football, I think that's a given, but I do think that's understandably secondary to most people when compared to simply getting results.

Imo we have stronger group of players at Anfield than I can remember in many years, including some world class talents in Reina, Mascher, Torres, Gerrard, some approaching that level; Keane, Agger & Skrtel, Carra, or with the potential to reach that level; Babel, Lucas. We flagrantly have some issues in wide positions, but with there are very few clubs without limitless resources who can say they don't have weaknesses. I really don't think we're far off being a genuinely good side which could be capable of playing both attractive and winning football, but as long as we're not quite there I'd rather we were winning first and being attractive later, rather than the other way round.

I think with the players we have now we can play better football, pass it better, have more penetrative moves and use our full backs better in attack. It's not a call for gunho attacking but just having a little bit more zip to the way we play and not allowing the opposition to settle so easily. Any team with Gerrard, Keane, Torres, Babel and Alonso should be keeping possession and moving much better than we do.

Michael, I think after 4 years we should be far closer to this kind of football than we are.

[memzey]

over the course of the 4 years Rafa has neglected expansive football and technical excellence in favour of regimented football designed to suffocate the opposition and wear them down and in turn allowing us to attack when they are weak. Nobody can deny that, Rafa even admits it.

Interesting to read that bit.

Can anyone else remember Rafa's Valencia team that played us in the CL when we were under GH? They suffocated the life out of us and played us entirely off he park. I think it was only 1-0 but one of the most one-sided 1-0's I've ever seen us lose at anfield. That's the pattern of play I think Rafa is after: make us a horrible team to play against, deny the opposition fluidity and the opportunity to build up a rythm and when they are camped in their own half/penalty area due to repeatedly sacrificing posession to us, cut them open with quick incisive one touch passing and movement off the ball.

It would be too easy to say that we are further along the 'suffocation' aspect than we are the 'penetration', as I feel they are inexorably linked, however for whatever reason Rafa has struggled to find the right players to do the job he wants for the team, especially in the wide areas. I don't really think this is all his fault and infact I give him my unqualified support, but he has made a few mistakes along the way as all managers do. The main issue for me is that there aren't many players who can do that job for us in the market at the moment, so he has to make do for now and tinker with his formation/pattern of play. The encouraging thing for me is that he is learning from his mistakes and won't persist with an obviously **** player even if he bought him (GH lovers take note).

IMHO We are a better team than we have been since the days of Dalglish. When we are settled in our play (as we were for much of last season), we pass and move quickly and with conviction making us as attractive to watch as anybody. We've got off to a slow start this term (as have most) but still have 6 out of 6 in the league (as only Chelsea also have). More encouragingly, the ressies and the yoofs are the best in the country and already well versed in what Rafa expects of them. Because of this, I think we will continue to get better as the years go by.

Rafa is a man with a plan. Get in line behind him and unless he completely and obviously loses the plot like GH did, we should back him and the team all the way.

[MrMichael]

Michael, I think after 4 years we should be far closer to this kind of football than we are.

Lets just wait and see, I was much happier with the fluidity and attacking play in the second half of last season when we finally found a formation that best suited the players we had at our disposal then. Hopefully that won't take as long this season, and we'll continue getting results as that comes together, if it does there is still a chance you could get your wish AND we'll be in with a real shot of success too. It is very early doors, and although it would have been great to really make a statement in the first few games in terms of football, the best statement of all is points gained.

When Keane and Torres get comfortable together, Mascherano is back bossing the midfield, and Riera & Babel hopefully step-up in the wide positions, there's no reason at all not to think we can and will start to play the way we all would want us to. We'll see, it might all go pete tong, but we've got to have a bit of patience if not through faith then for no other reason than simple pragmatism - we really can't be replacing Rafa right now, we're not Newcastle after all

[Elvoz]

Yes, when I can. If it counts. I have been to two this season, why does that matter?

read what i said

[Skillz]

JohnDoe - again I really enjoyed reading that but let me ask you this... if you look at the successful wide players at Chelsea, Manchester United, and Arsenal over the past few years...

Robben, J. Cole, Ronaldo, Nasri, Pires, Hleb, etc..

How many of them cost "Torres money"? They were all costing less than or about the same as Babel cost us of Kuyt cost us. I disagree that you have to spend £20m to buy a decent winger, you don't as that list proved. You just have to have an eye for good attacking players and IMO Rafa doesn't or his scouts don't.

But Rash we bought Harry Kewell for **** all and at the time of signing him I would be very confident he was as good if not better than all of them at the time of signing.

Unfortunately it didn't work out as we would like but how many left sided players are going for less than Torres money with quality?

Oh and by the way we can't afford to spend Torres money on this "player".

[Exiled_red]

JohnDoe - again I really enjoyed reading that but let me ask you this... if you look at the successful wide players at Chelsea, Manchester United, and Arsenal over the past few years...

Robben, J. Cole, Ronaldo, Nasri, Pires, Hleb, etc..

How many of them cost "Torres money"? They were all costing less than or about the same as Babel cost us of Kuyt cost us. I disagree that you have to spend £20m to buy a decent winger, you don't as that list proved. You just have to have an eye for good attacking players and IMO Rafa doesn't or his scouts don't.

Hleb and Ronaldo cost about the same as we paid for Babel, but both of those were signed in 2003, we signed Babel in 2007, those clubs were spending that sort of money four years ago, with all the additional money in the game now the fees have been significantly pushed up. Chelsea signed Robben for £16m in 2004 and sold him for £24m, so that illustrates how much the fees have gone up in that time

[Rishi73]

JohnDoe - again I really enjoyed reading that but let me ask you this... if you look at the successful wide players at Chelsea, Manchester United, and Arsenal over the past few years...

Robben, J. Cole, Ronaldo, Nasri, Pires, Hleb, etc..

How many of them cost "Torres money"? They were all costing less than or about the same as Babel cost us of Kuyt cost us. I disagree that you have to spend £20m to buy a decent winger, you don't as that list proved. You just have to have an eye for good attacking players and IMO Rafa doesn't or his scouts don't.

How can you say Nasri is a successful winger after playing 2 games!?!

[Rashid]

Hleb and Ronaldo cost about the same as we paid for Babel, but both of those were signed in 2003, we signed Babel in 2007, those clubs were spending that sort of money four years ago, with all the additional money in the game now the fees have been significantly pushed up. Chelsea signed Robben for £16m in 2004 and sold him for £24m, so that illustrates how much the fees have gone up in that time

Ferdinand was bought in 2002 for £30m mate - fees have been high, the world record from 2002 still stands too at £48m. Fees haven't changed by that much to be honest especially not as much as you are saying. Rafa has now spent over £40m in wingers over 4 years, if he had of got 2 of then right there wouldn't be a need to find new ones every summer.

[Laz]

Anyway... great result against 'boro eh? Thought we were done for for a while!

[Assassin]

Ferdinand was bought in 2002 for £30m mate - fees have been high, the world record from 2002 still stands too at £48m. Fees haven't changed by that much to be honest especially not as much as you are saying. Rafa has now spent over £40m in wingers over 4 years, if he had of got 2 of then right there wouldn't be a need to find new ones every summer.

What wingers has Rafa bought for £40 million

[Rashid]

What wingers has Rafa bought for £40 million

Wide players bought by Rafa or players bought buy Rafa who have been regularly used out wide. (I'll leave of Steve Gerrard and Djibril Cisse as they were not bought by him).

Antonio Nunez Real Madrid £1,500,000
Luis Garcia Barcelona £6,000,000
Boudewijn Zenden Free
Mark Gonzalez Albacete £3,500,000
Jermaine Pennant Birmingham £6,700,000
Dirk Kuyt Feyenoord £9,000,000
Nabil El Zhar St Etienne £200,000
Yossi Benayoun West Ham £5,000,000
Ryan Babel Ajax £11,500,000

I make that £43.4m

And now Riera £8,000,000

Making it £51.4 on wide players - and we still don't have a first choice one. Get what I mean now?

[JPK]

Wide players bought by Rafa or players bought buy Rafa who have been regularly used out wide. (I'll leave of Steve Gerrard and Djibril Cisse as they were not bought by him).

Antonio Nunez Real Madrid £1,500,000
Luis Garcia Barcelona £6,000,000
Boudewijn Zenden Free
Jose Reina Villareal £6,000,000
Mark Gonzalez Albacete £3,500,000
Jermaine Pennant Birmingham £6,700,000
Dirk Kuyt Feyenoord £9,000,000
Nabil El Zhar St Etienne £200,000
Yossi Benayoun West Ham £5,000,000
Ryan Babel Ajax £11,500,000

I make that £49.4m

And now Riera £8,000,000

Making it £57.4 on wide players - and we still don't have a first choice one. Get what I mean now?

[Johnny]

No we're not, Chelsea are. That sticks in my throat but then we are only 2 games in!

Joint Top is still Top.Pedant.

[Assassin]

Wide players bought by Rafa or players bought buy Rafa who have been regularly used out wide. (I'll leave of Steve Gerrard and Djibril Cisse as they were not bought by him).

Antonio Nunez Real Madrid £1,500,000
Luis Garcia Barcelona £6,000,000
Boudewijn Zenden Free
Jose Reina Villareal £6,000,000
Mark Gonzalez Albacete £3,500,000
Jermaine Pennant Birmingham £6,700,000
Dirk Kuyt Feyenoord £9,000,000
Nabil El Zhar St Etienne £200,000
Yossi Benayoun West Ham £5,000,000
Ryan Babel Ajax £11,500,000

I make that £49.4m

And now Riera £8,000,000

Making it £57.4 on wide players - and we still don't have a first choice one. Get what I mean now?

Actually NO only Gonzalez and Pennant are wingers.

Reina FFS further proof of your footballing knowledge

[Rashid]

Sorry about the Reina mistake.. and Pennant or Gonzalez aside, we all know the others were bought to play wide, or have been played wide... no need to be pedantic about it.