Seems like Dirk Kuyt is untouchable

[Craig_H]

Sorry Rashid, where does this article say he is untouchable?

Rafa merely points out that he is great for the squad/team and always puts in the effort, something that can't always be said for others. As such, I don't see why he shouldn't be rewarded with getting picked for the matches, especially when he's able to fit into several different positions

You're right about everything you say in terms of what the article does or doesnt say. But the fact that Kuyt gets picked for virtually every game does suggest that he's almost untouchable in the first team, which i dont personally think a player of his limited ability should be.

Gerrard, Carra, Reina, Torres, Mascherano are 'untouchable' for me, and rightly so. Not Kuyt though. Working hard and putting in effort is surely something which goes without saying. It's the bare minimum, rather than something which means someone should always start games.

Well that's my view anyway, everyone's entitled to their own.

[Craig_H]

No it isn't, that's just missing what I'm trying to say. Jamie Carragher has never been the most technically gifted of players, he's had to work extremely hard to become the player we all know and love. There are plenty of defenders out there with greater technical attributes than Carra, what's set him out for us has been his 110% commitment and willingness to give it all for the red shirt in every single game. Hence why he was never the same player for England, or seen as the same by England.

The analogy I'm making would have someone like Rio Ferdinand as the Ronaldo of defending.

I understand what you're saying, but i disagree mate.

Carragher is a far more talented defender and has far more defensive ability than Kuyt is a talented forward. I wouldnt call Carragher limited in a defensive sense. In terms of 'skill' and 'touch', Carragher might be deemed limited, but those things arent crucial attributes for a defender to have. Clearly the different roles require different attributes and i think Carra has most of the important attributes a defender needs to have.

As a top defender, you need to be excellent at defending, eg stopping goals and chances. Carra does that on a regular basis and to a very high level.

As a top forward, you need to be a constant threat and regularly scoring goals and creating chances. I wouldnt say that described Kuyt.

They're both hard working and have a great attitude but Carragher regularly delivers the main function of his position, whereas i dont think Kuyt does.

[Craig_H]

OK, understood. However....

I don't think Kuyt's attacking play is at all as bad as people make out. His goal return last season was not good enough, but he does tend to weigh in with a good number of assists too. You say "Kuyt's job is to score goals and to make goals, to get past defenders and make things happen" - is that the job Rafa is asking him to do, or the job we would like to see him do?

Revisiting the Carragher analogy, he had a spell earlier in his Anfield career when people thought he didn't have enough technical ability to make it, and for a long time was played as a full back, where some of the usually required attributes were not really his at all. A bit like Kuyt at the moment. But Carra's determination, desire, and awareness of his own strengths and limitations then played a major part in allowing him to become the legend he is today.

I would like to make it clear that I'm not saying Kuyt is the best thing since sliced bread, I'm more than aware of his limitations and the need we have in our squad and first team for more genuinely creative and classy wide men who could make the position he currently occupies their own, but some of the outright abuse the lad gets from sections of our own fanbase is simply disgusting, as well as impossibly myopic in view of what he actually puts into doing for the team. A player like Kuyt adds something different to the squad, his workrate and attitude are not just "good" but outstanding, and I believe could genuinely contribute something to a title challenge if (and its a big if), the balance, fluidity and overall technical quality of the other players around him is good enough.

Kuyt's a top lad and i like him a lot. I dont think what he brings to the table is what i would want from an attacking player, but that's not his fault. He brings what he brings and the manager decides that's what is required, so fair play to Dirk.

Ability isnt something a player can have a great deal of control over, if you're not blessed with Ronaldo-like talent, you cant help it. All you can do is give your all, do your best and sacrifice for the greater good and Kuyt does that more than most. His attitude, character and professionalism is superb and in that respect, he deserves enormous praise.

As for any 'fan' abusing him (or any LFC player), that's just scandalous. There's a line between not rating someone in terms of talent, and outrightly abusing them and people who cant see that line shouldnt call themselves fans in my view.

[MrMichael]

I understand what you're saying, but i disagree mate.

Carragher is a far more talented defender and has far more defensive ability than Kuyt is a talented forward. I wouldnt call Carragher limited in a defensive sense. In terms of 'skill' and 'touch', Carragher might be deemed limited, but those things arent crucial attributes for a defender to have. Clearly the different roles require different attributes and i think Carra has most of the important attributes a defender needs to have.

As a top defender, you need to be excellent at defending, eg stopping goals and chances. Carra does that on a regular basis and to a very high level.

As a top forward, you need to be a constant threat and regularly scoring goals and creating chances. I wouldnt say that described Kuyt.

They're both hard working and have a great attitude but Carragher regularly delivers the main function of his position, whereas i dont think Kuyt does.

You make that case well dude, and I'm not going to argue with most of it or try to hold this analogy up much longer, as clearly I'd be wrong.

However.... the bit I highlighted, how about when Carra plays out of position (which Kuyt is doing currently on the right in a 442). at full back Carra delivers part of the function (defensive solidity) but is very limited (if not for lack of effort) at the more attacking aspects of that position. Sort of similar to Kuyt at right mid. Of course Carra in his favoured centre-back is better than Kuyt upfront, which is where I fail with this line, but anyway.

Kuyt's a top lad and i like him a lot. I dont think what he brings to the table is what i would want from an attacking player, but that's not his fault. He brings what he brings and the manager decides that's what is required, so fair play to Dirk.

Ability isnt something a player can have a great deal of control over, if you're not blessed with Ronaldo-like talent, you cant help it. All you can do is give your all, do your best and sacrifice for the greater good and Kuyt does that more than most. His attitude, character and professionalism is superb and in that respect, he deserves enormous praise.

As for any 'fan' abusing him (or any LFC player), that's just scandalous. There's a line between not rating someone in terms of talent, and outrightly abusing them and people who cant see that line shouldnt call themselves fans in my view.

Spot on, and very well put.

[Craig_H]

However.... the bit I highlighted, how about when Carra plays out of position (which Kuyt is doing currently on the right in a 442). at full back Carra delivers part of the function (defensive solidity) but is very limited (if not for lack of effort) at the more attacking aspects of that position. Sort of similar to Kuyt at right mid. Of course Carra in his favoured centre-back is better than Kuyt upfront, which is where I fail with this line, but anyway.

I dont really disagree with any of that.

[JermainePennant]

Kuyt is not good enough to play up front for us and certainly not good enough to be our right winger,when we start loosing and drawing games people will start moaning about all he is doing is working hard and not creating or scoring enough.

If we play 4231 I see him playing out right until christmas if we play 442 I would give him til the end of october start of novemeber when he will either get dropped from right midfield or because rafa loves him so much moved to a different position.

Kuyt is not liverpool quality simple as that.

[flyboy]

when a manager has his favourites we'll just have to tolerate it.dirk kuyt probably wouldnt be able to score in a whore house but he'll always be there in rafa's first 11.i've pratically given up trying to figure out what kuyt actually offers to this club.

[BFG]

Kuyt is not good enough to play up front for us and certainly not good enough to be our right winger,when we start loosing and drawing games people will start moaning about all he is doing is working hard and not creating or scoring enough.

If we play 4231 I see him playing out right until christmas if we play 442 I would give him til the end of october start of novemeber when he will either get dropped from right midfield or because rafa loves him so much moved to a different position.

Kuyt is not liverpool quality simple as that.

Doesn't mean that the moaners are right though does it. There's plenty of idiots who simply don't understand that 10 minutes on match of the day doesn't make or break a player. It's their contribution to the team as a whole that's important over 90 minutes of each game of the season.

Not even sure what you're trying to say in the last paragraph. You're saying you'd give him until October but then you'd drop him. Surely his performances should dictate what would happen after October? Unless you've got it in your head already that he's 'not Liverpool quality,' and it doesn't really matter what actually happens on the pitch you'll just be good for a mind numbing cry and moan from here til kingdom come. You're last sentence certainly indicates that.

[JPK]

I can see Kuyt losing his place in our league team soon myself. He has a poor goal record and never convincingly threatens to score and he does not assist a great deal.
You can work as hard as you want and gives the opposition fullback a tough game, but goals pay the rent and that is what we need from his position.

Babel showed last year that he has goals in him and Gerrard will always score and they will be our wide men imo with Kuyt and Riera if he signs pushing them.
A spell on the sidelines could be just what Kuyt needs to see the bigger picture.

[RedReet]

Kuyt is not good enough to play up front for us and certainly not good enough to be our right winger,when we start loosing and drawing games people will start moaning about all he is doing is working hard and not creating or scoring enough.

If we play 4231 I see him playing out right until christmas if we play 442 I would give him til the end of october start of novemeber when he will either get dropped from right midfield or because rafa loves him so much moved to a different position.

Kuyt is not liverpool quality simple as that.

People do that anyway, even when we win and even when he plays well.

when a manager has his favourites we'll just have to tolerate it.dirk kuyt probably wouldnt be able to score in a whore house but he'll always be there in rafa's first 11.i've pratically given up trying to figure out what kuyt actually offers to this club.

Try actually watching him during a game and not making judgement on what other people write and what is shown on highlights.

I can see Kuyt losing his place in our league team soon myself. He has a poor goal record and never convincingly threatens to score and he does not assist a great deal.
You can work as hard as you want and gives the opposition fullback a tough game, but goals pay the rent and that is what we need from his position.

Babel showed last year that he has goals in him and Gerrard will always score and they will be our wide men imo with Kuyt and Riera if he signs pushing them.
A spell on the sidelines could be just what Kuyt needs to see the bigger picture.

No they won't.

[Laz]

Would it surprise any of you that Dirk Kuyt, at 1 in 4, has a better scoring ratio for Liverpool than Yossi, Babel and even Stevie G?

I still think there are better wide-right players out there but he still does a better job for the team than many supporters on here give him credit for.

[Exiled_red]

I think it may be a confidence building exercise

[Woobus]

Think Kuyt would benefit from a good attacking full back, he opens up so much space on the right hand and so far we havent been able to capitalise on it. Hopefully Deggen is as good going forward as reports say he is.

[flyboy]

People do that anyway, even when we win and even when he plays well.



Try actually watching him during a game and not making judgement on what other people write and what is shown on highlights.



No they won't.

i knew that we had signed a dud after watching him at the world cup.

[Laz]

And Ronaldo at the Euros and Gerrard and Carra for England are fair representations of their club form too I suppose.