Lucas

[RedReet]

We didn't need to take the initiative against the mancs. Maybe for a few minutes.

Newcastle away then. Arguably two of our best performances this year, again with this 'horrible' midfield partnership.

Lucas and Mascherano probably wouldn’t be anyone’s first choice midfield pairing, but I do think you are a bit over the top with your criticism.

[JohnDoe]

Newcastle away then. Arguably two of our best performances this year, again with this 'horrible' midfield partnership.

Lucas and Mascherano probably wouldn’t be anyone’s first choice midfield pairing, but I do think you are a bit over the top with your criticism.

I think the Newcastle game shouldn't be taken as a basis for an opinion. If it was anything to go by, it could be argued that we're a great set piece team because we've scored about 4 goals from corners in our last two matches against them.

They're a terrible team and while I did compliment Lucas for his performance, he had tons of space in that match. Space he's not going to get against anyone else in the Premier League except from West Brom maybe.

[RedReet]

I don’t see how it’s fair to make exceptions for his good performances yet he has to be held fully responsible for his so called bad ones and cast aside.

[JohnDoe]

I don’t see how it’s fair to make exceptions for his good performances yet he has to be held fully responsible for his so called bad ones and cast aside.

It is fair when these good performances are the exception rather than the rule. Lucas has had about 4 or 5 good matches in his Liverpool career. In the rest he's been either dire, average or deceptively 'steady'.

[RedReet]

But to make your point valid, his ‘dire’ performances would severely have to outweigh his good performances, especially playing with Mascherano.

These performances are also your personal opinion and we must remember his Liverpool career is just beginning.

Rafa clearly has faith in Lucas and this proves to me that Lucas is doing what Rafa has asked of him on the pitch. It mightn’t look spectacular to us mere fans, (and Lucas himself has said he’d prefer a more attacking role), but he’s obviously following Rafa’s instructions well enough to continue to get picked. It reminds me of when Xabi was first asked to play a bit deeper and break up play more. A lot of his work went unnoticed and people were complaining that he wasn’t the player of old. Xabi had to adjust his style and perform the role Rafa wanted, and it wasn’t until MOTD highlighted how well he performed this role that people started appreciating it. Lucas is nowhere near Xabi at the minute, but he’s still developing.

[Chrono]

If that was a 'good' game from him yesterday, I really don't want to see the bad ones. Whenever he plays, he's always the weak link in midfield and has minimal impact. You barely notice he's there, so people say "He was in Masch's role, so he did the simple defensive work", but what exactly did he do defensively? How many tackles has he put in? How many balls has he won? At least Masch has some energy going forward, and sometimes he even manages to contribute offensively, he's set up quite a few goals going forward, what does Lucas do? I'll tell you what he does:

1. Receive ball.
2. Attempt to control the ball for about 3 seconds.
3. Gets pressured by an opposition player.
4. ****s himself.
5. Tries to find the nearest man for a simple backwards or sideways pass.
6. Lets out a sigh of relief, and makes a run forward to hide behind the opposition so that no one will give him the ball again.

So 6 works with Alonso in the team, because he's excellent at making the plays by himself, but it fails horribly when he's partnered with Masch because we're left with on one to master our game. This is why Lucas-Masch is so horrible, and why Alonso-Lucas kinda works. He's a liability either way, we just feel he's good when it doesn't hinder our team massively. A player who's a liability by default and is needed to be carried by someone next to him does not merit a starting position.

So when does Lucas have a good performance? When we don't dominate possession and he just concentrates on running around and chasing the ball. Everyone can look good by working hard.

Not good enough.

I thought I was going mad, amen brother. He is without a doubt the weakest link and has been given a ridiculous amount of time to come good.

He always plays the simple ball so when we have momentum going forwarrd he switches it from a swift attack to a slow buildup and as you said so often gets caught on the ball. He is not good enough for Liverpool and should be sold.

[dww]

I thought I was going mad, amen brother. He is without a doubt the weakest link and has been given a ridiculous amount of time to come good.

He always plays the simple ball so when we have momentum going forwarrd he switches it from a swift attack to a slow buildup and as you said so often gets caught on the ball. He is not good enough for Liverpool and should be sold.

I think people undervalue the simple ball. When our wide players are doing well and allow him to move further up the pitch he does make things happen by linking up moves. he is not flashy and he does at times dwell on the ball too much but I think he has always been a decent player and has shown the potential to be every bit as good as Gilberto Silva in a similar role.

He was heavily involved in our good form at the end of last season and has played in several of our best performances this term - I don't think it is a coincidence.

[Vermilion]

Way too early imo to be saying he must be sold and is NOT good enough, he's still learning his trade to an extent, and although 'the now' is the most important thing as we stand, Lucas is more about the future..and what Rafa believes he can become imo.

Agree there is plenty of room for improvement, can't deny that at all, but a player rated as highly as he was in Brazil must have the tools at hand to do just that, for now i think he's told to just keep it simple, don't take too many risks etc.

He's very much a 'confidence' player at present, body language gives a lot away with him, he knows he's not a fans favourite and that shows, in the games where i think he's played without fear he's done ok.

[Chrono]

I think people undervalue the simple ball.

Just going to pick up that point. I appreciate what you are saying and entirely agree that the simple ball can actually be the better ball but not when you have momentum going forward.

If we had played it from the back and were building up an attack then for the sake of losing possession I would agree that this sort of ball would make sense and could stretch the opposition. The problem is that when you are breaking against a team and you are maybe 1-2 man short on who they have running back then you need to rely on certain players to break quickly and he would be one of them when instead he plays it square and this one pass allows them to restructure their team. This annoys me because however good we have been this season it is getting passed the teams that park the bus which is the problem so you need players capable to moving things quickly on those few chances you are likley to get when they are caught going forward.

I'm also not sure we need our own version of Gilberto.

[dww]

Just going to pick up that point. I appreciate what you are saying and entirely agree that the simple ball can actually be the better ball but not when you have momentum going forward.

If we had played it from the back and were building up an attack then for the sake of losing possession I would agree that this sort of ball would make sense and could stretch the opposition. The problem is that when you are breaking against a team and you are maybe 1-2 man short on who they have running back then you need to rely on certain players to break quickly and he would be one of them when instead he plays it square and this one pass allows them to restructure their team. This annoys me because however good we have been this season it is getting passed the teams that park the bus which is the problem so you need players capable to moving things quickly on those few chances you are likley to get when they are caught going forward.

I'm also not sure we need our own version of Gilberto.

I've said on several occasions that I think that we need another different style of CM in addition to those we have. I think a Gilberto like player is a very useful option to have and one that can play with a number of different styles of Cm beside him in formations that Rafa likes. He is young and I think he has been learning.

I take your point that he doesn't always make the best decisions but then this season I have seen Mascher run out of defense with the ball in situations like you say only to get confused and hand the ball back to the opposition or pass backwards.

[wiw]

If that was a 'good' game from him yesterday, I really don't want to see the bad ones. Whenever he plays, he's always the weak link in midfield and has minimal impact. You barely notice he's there, so people say "He was in Masch's role, so he did the simple defensive work", but what exactly did he do defensively? How many tackles has he put in? How many balls has he won? At least Masch has some energy going forward, and sometimes he even manages to contribute offensively, he's set up quite a few goals going forward, what does Lucas do? I'll tell you what he does:

1. Receive ball.
2. Attempt to control the ball for about 3 seconds.
3. Gets pressured by an opposition player.
4. ****s himself.
5. Tries to find the nearest man for a simple backwards or sideways pass.
6. Lets out a sigh of relief, and makes a run forward to hide behind the opposition so that no one will give him the ball again.

So 6 works with Alonso in the team, because he's excellent at making the plays by himself, but it fails horribly when he's partnered with Masch because we're left with on one to master our game. This is why Lucas-Masch is so horrible, and why Alonso-Lucas kinda works. He's a liability either way, we just feel he's good when it doesn't hinder our team massively. A player who's a liability by default and is needed to be carried by someone next to him does not merit a starting position.

So when does Lucas have a good performance? When we don't dominate possession and he just concentrates on running around and chasing the ball. Everyone can look good by working hard.

Not good enough.

He did the dirty work and made space so Alonso could shine..or "running around and chasing the ball, working hard and looking good" as you put it. As others have said, he played in part of a midfield 2 that dominated the game. If he was that **** we wouldn't be able to do this surely?

Just having a look at the chalkboard thing it shows he completed 35 of 40 passes, and no they weren't all backwards or sideways. Xabi completed 51 of 59

[barnes10]

If that was a 'good' game from him yesterday, I really don't want to see the bad ones. Whenever he plays, he's always the weak link in midfield and has minimal impact. You barely notice he's there, so people say "He was in Masch's role, so he did the simple defensive work", but what exactly did he do defensively? How many tackles has he put in? How many balls has he won? At least Masch has some energy going forward, and sometimes he even manages to contribute offensively, he's set up quite a few goals going forward, what does Lucas do? I'll tell you what he does:

1. Receive ball.
2. Attempt to control the ball for about 3 seconds.
3. Gets pressured by an opposition player.
4. ****s himself.
5. Tries to find the nearest man for a simple backwards or sideways pass.
6. Lets out a sigh of relief, and makes a run forward to hide behind the opposition so that no one will give him the ball again.

So 6 works with Alonso in the team, because he's excellent at making the plays by himself, but it fails horribly when he's partnered with Masch because we're left with on one to master our game. This is why Lucas-Masch is so horrible, and why Alonso-Lucas kinda works. He's a liability either way, we just feel he's good when it doesn't hinder our team massively. A player who's a liability by default and is needed to be carried by someone next to him does not merit a starting position.

So when does Lucas have a good performance? When we don't dominate possession and he just concentrates on running around and chasing the ball. Everyone can look good by working hard.

Not good enough.

[Craig_H]

It's not the time to show it as he's got to get his confidence back again. You can't compare Lucas to Mascherano as they are totally different players. Lucas is a ball player whereas Masch is a ball winner.

Lucas has a small frame, which makes it doubly difficult for him to get used to the league here but he's getting there. He has the basic qualities to become a top class player. He wouldn't be put in the firing line if he was ****.

You can compare them in the sense that neither gives much going forward.

But as i've said, they're both doing their jobs well, so that's all good.

I'm giving Lucas credit and he deserves it, but dont be daft enough to sit there trying to convince me that he's great going forward, because there just isnt the evidence to support that statement.

And in case you hadnt noticed, i'm actualling praising him, so where you got the '****' part from, i dont know. Read the actual posts, fredo.

[Craig_H]

If that was a 'good' game from him yesterday, I really don't want to see the bad ones. Whenever he plays, he's always the weak link in midfield and has minimal impact. You barely notice he's there, so people say "He was in Masch's role, so he did the simple defensive work", but what exactly did he do defensively? How many tackles has he put in? How many balls has he won? At least Masch has some energy going forward, and sometimes he even manages to contribute offensively, he's set up quite a few goals going forward, what does Lucas do? I'll tell you what he does:

1. Receive ball.
2. Attempt to control the ball for about 3 seconds.
3. Gets pressured by an opposition player.
4. ****s himself.
5. Tries to find the nearest man for a simple backwards or sideways pass.
6. Lets out a sigh of relief, and makes a run forward to hide behind the opposition so that no one will give him the ball again.

So 6 works with Alonso in the team, because he's excellent at making the plays by himself, but it fails horribly when he's partnered with Masch because we're left with on one to master our game. This is why Lucas-Masch is so horrible, and why Alonso-Lucas kinda works. He's a liability either way, we just feel he's good when it doesn't hinder our team massively. A player who's a liability by default and is needed to be carried by someone next to him does not merit a starting position.

So when does Lucas have a good performance? When we don't dominate possession and he just concentrates on running around and chasing the ball. Everyone can look good by working hard.

Not good enough.

On the contrary, there were several times yesterday where he broke up the play, won the ball for us and gave it to a red shirt, nice and simple.

Whilst i'm not suggesting he's at the german's level yet, that is basically what Didi Hamann made a Liverpool career out of doing. And he was/is a legend.

Players have to know their limitations and Lucas seems to be learning his, which i'm delighted about. He's never going to beat three men and ping one into the top corner, but we have others who can do that. A brilliant team is one which contains all aspects of football, there's the pretty stuff going forward and the less pretty stuff, but that still needs to be done.

I'm happy with Lucas' performances of late and if that becomes his regular contribution on a weekly basis throughout the season, i'll be very happy to have him in the squad.

It is fair when these good performances are the exception rather than the rule. Lucas has had about 4 or 5 good matches in his Liverpool career. In the rest he's been either dire, average or deceptively 'steady'.

I agree with you here, but the point is, he is NOW producing good performance after good performance. If this continues, i dont care about the poor ones anymore. The idea is to improve and reach a good level and he's doing that. His current level of performance is probably more than i'd expect for £6m worth of young unestablished midfielder.

[Craig_H]

I thought I was going mad, amen brother. He is without a doubt the weakest link and has been given a ridiculous amount of time to come good.

He always plays the simple ball so when we have momentum going forwarrd he switches it from a swift attack to a slow buildup and as you said so often gets caught on the ball. He is not good enough for Liverpool and should be sold.

As i alluded to with the previous post, Hamann made a career out of winning possession and then playing the simple ball. It might not be flashy or anything, but it means we keep possession.

Sometimes, if the movement is correct, a string of 'simple' balls can carve open a defence. Dww is right, the 'simple' ball is vastly underrated.