Now It's Grobbelars turn to have a go at Rafa

[barnes10]

coming from a cunt that took money to let goals in against us.

fook him

[Tee]

This net spend business really does my head in. Because Rafa has a net spend of only 20 million a season he is deemed to have been doing an amazing job.

But surely the fact that he has on average spent double that every season (however the funds were raised) leaves many of his decisions open to serious criticism? Doesn't it??

I am not sure if I am analysing this in the wrong way but to me he has spent big but on too many players - a criticism I had from the start. Quality not quantity - and before I get hammered and you say he inherited a **** squad, don't forget that **** squad gave us arguably the most memorable night in the club's history.

[Shaggy]

Thats not entirely true though is it.
Rafa wanted £18m from Juve, not £10M and Juve wouldn't/ couldn't pay up.
Rafa wanted Xabi out 2 summers ago when he'd been ****e for the last 2 seasons.
After last season he wanted him to stay.
Again he wanted Arbeloa to stay, but he needed the money from Arbies transfer and Arby wanted out.

The reason it is being highlighted as a failure to strengthen is that as we all know, modern football is a squad game, not a team game.
I don't think anyone could argue that when we had our first XI out last season, we were one of the best sides in Europe.
If we had had 1 or 2 more quality players (strikers as back up for Stevie and Torres), then we could well have won the league.
This has been carried over into this season.
Also you have to add in that if you stand still and everyone else moves forward, in effect you have gone backwards.

[Shaggy]

This net spend business really does my head in. Because Rafa has a net spend of only 20 million a season he is deemed to have been doing an amazing job.

But surely the fact that he has on average spent double that every season (however the funds were raised) leaves many of his decisions open to serious criticism? Doesn't it??

But these ludicrous totals, like £200m , include players who have now gone. What sort of analysis is that FFS?! When you sell a house, buy another, sell it and buy another again, you don't ****ing add them all up and say "I have spent a million pounds on my house" or whatever. It's preposterous.

"The bottom line" is an accountacy term. The bottom line in accountancy is net spend. So, the bottom line is Rafa has spent an average of about £16m per year in overhauling an entire squad, getting us to two CL finals, winning one, and improvements in the league. Remember, when we came 4th under Houllier he was quick to tell us all what a great achievement it was. We have improved unquestionably and Rafa has done it on a relative shoestring.

[BFG]

But these ludicrous totals, like £200m , include players who have now gone. What sort of analysis is that FFS?! When you sell a house, buy another, sell it and buy another again, you don't ****ing add them all up and say "I have spent a million pounds on my house" or whatever. It's preposterous.

"The bottom line" is an accountacy term. The bottom line in accountancy is net spend. So, the bottom line is Rafa has spent an average of about £16m per year in overhauling an entire squad, getting us to two CL finals, winning one, and improvements in the league. Remember, when we came 4th under Houllier he was quick to tell us all what a great achievement it was. We have improved unquestionably and Rafa has done it on a relative shoestring.

[Guest]

This net spend business really does my head in. Because Rafa has a net spend of only 20 million a season he is deemed to have been doing an amazing job.

But surely the fact that he has on average spent double that every season (however the funds were raised) leaves many of his decisions open to serious criticism? Doesn't it??

I am not sure if I am analysing this in the wrong way but to me he has spent big but on too many players - a criticism I had from the start. Quality not quantity - and before I get hammered and you say he inherited a **** squad, don't forget that **** squad gave us arguably the most memorable night in the club's history.

Spent double what, £20m? No, he spent £16m on average every season, buying the likes of Torres, Reina, Benayoun etc ... which to me is fantastic business. Of course, not all his signings have worked out but he's shipped them out fairly quickly and cut his losses rather well if you ask me.

It all seems so depressing this season because it's been an absolute disaster in terms of injuries but for ****'s sake, we've got the same squad as last season, barring one or two additions and 3 players going, Sami, Alonso and Arbeloa (replaced by Kyriagos, Aquilani - a younger arguably better player than Xabi and Glen Johnson - who many people see as an improvement on Arbeloa).

I'm aghast at how some of our fans can fall for this bollocks (including you). This is very poor, we proud ourselves to be very knowledgeable.

[Tee]

But these ludicrous totals, like £200m , include players who have now gone. What sort of analysis is that FFS?! When you sell a house, buy another, sell it and buy another again, you don't ****ing add them all up and say "I have spent a million pounds on my house" or whatever. It's preposterous.

"The bottom line" is an accountacy term. The bottom line in accountancy is net spend. So, the bottom line is Rafa has spent an average of about £16m per year in overhauling an entire squad, getting us to two CL finals, winning one, and improvements in the league. Remember, when we came 4th under Houllier he was quick to tell us all what a great achievement it was. We have improved unquestionably and Rafa has done it on a relative shoestring.

OK that makes more sense.

But if he had used the money available more effectively, using the same analogy that you have, shouldn't we have a better property than we have?

[zimbo]

We HAVE improved and keeping up as well as we can considering the amount Rafa has had to spend (NET, oh there's that word again that people so easily sweep under the carpet). Before Rafa came along finishing 4th was an acheivement now its an expectation, is that not improvement? We finished on more points last season then we have done for about 20 years (I could be slightly wrong here).

... You can slate him for his bizarre substitution and team selection policies and I honestly can't argue with you. But the transfer facts speak for themselves (ps stole these from a previous post)....

Two points to make:

1 - In the 10 seasons prior to Benitez taking over, we finished in the top four on 8 occasions (1 second, 3 thirds and 4 fourths). It's therefore a bit misleading to suggest that our finishes under Rafa represent a marked improvement on what had come before.

2 - I've no real interest in criticising his transfer record, as to me it's not a major issue. I fully understand (and am unimaginably bored by) the gross / net discussion and am wholly sympathetic to the fact that our spending capacity is considerably less than our rivals and we are majorly hamstrung by having owners who lack the necessary resources and economic thrust (and, if we're being honest, the basic human qualities of integrity and truthfulness). I don't want to see Rafa go and am still generally confident that we'll find our way out of the current trough.

But that doesn't mean that I think he should be somehow immune from criticism. If I feel that his actions or decisions are having an adverse effect on our performances then I don't see it as some massive betrayal to point this out. People can then disagree as they fit. But the current tendency to dismiss all negative opinion out of hand, to absolve Rafa of all responsibility for our position and to suggest that any form of dissent signifies a lower loyalty score on the imaginary True Supporter gauge is, to me, blinkered, unhelpful and a bit cringeworthy.

[Tee]

Two points to make:

1 - In the 10 seasons prior to Benitez taking over, we finished in the top four on 8 occasions (1 second, 3 thirds and 4 fourths). It's therefore a bit misleading to suggest that our finishes under Rafa represent a marked improvement on what had come before.

2 - I've no real interest in criticising his transfer record, as to me it's not a major issue. I fully understand (and am unimaginably bored by) the gross / net discussion and am wholly sympathetic to the fact that our spending capacity is considerably less than our rivals and we are majorly hamstrung by having owners who lack the necessary resources and economic thrust (and, if we're being honest, the basic human qualities of integrity and truthfulness). I don't want to see Rafa go and am still generally confident that we'll find our way out of the current trough.

But that doesn't mean that I think he should be somehow immune from criticism. If I feel that his actions or decisions are having an adverse effect on our performances then I don't see it as some massive betrayal to point this out. People can then disagree as they fit. But the current tendency to dismiss all negative opinion out of hand, to absolve Rafa of all responsibility for our position and to suggest that any form of dissent signifies a lower loyalty score on the imaginary True Supporter gauge is, to me, blinkered, unhelpful and a bit cringeworthy.

[Guest]

But that doesn't mean that I think he should be somehow immune from criticism. If I feel that his actions or decisions are having an adverse effect on our performances then I don't see it as some massive betrayal to point this out. People can then disagree as they fit. But the current tendency to dismiss all negative opinion out of hand, to absolve Rafa of all responsibility for our position and to suggest that any form of dissent signifies a lower loyalty score on the imaginary True Supporter gauge is, to me, blinkered, unhelpful and a bit cringeworthy.

Of course people can disagree but I am not sure how good is the argument in favour of the disagreement. Rafa has himself said that he should take part of the blame (as well as all the backroom staff and players) for what happened this season but it's a bit harsh considering that players have been out of form since the beginning and the amount of injuries we've had this season to crucial players.

I'm sure we would have kicked on from where we were last season if Xabi didn't agitate for a move, and the Mascherano unrest didn't help.

Still Rafa managed to get £30m plus for Xabi and astutely replaced him with Aquilani (it remains to be seen how astute this signing has been though) and brought in Glen Johnson who has done very well for us up to now.

Our problem has been to ship out the players who haven't been performing, such as Babel, Voronin, Dossena & al, who would have given us more options in the absence of our more influential players, add to that our sudden incapacity at defending set pieces this season, which has cost us of some crucial victories. Last minute defeat against Lyon, complete no show in the first half against Fiorentina and second half collapse against Fulham comes to mind.

Irrelevant of all this is that we're going through a bad period and as a club we should all stick together. Imagine yourself in the middle of nowhere on a boat, where there's no other option but to stick together.

[BFG]

Two points to make:

1 - In the 10 seasons prior to Benitez taking over, we finished in the top four on 8 occasions (1 second, 3 thirds and 4 fourths). It's therefore a bit misleading to suggest that our finishes under Rafa represent a marked improvement on what had come before.

2 - I've no real interest in criticising his transfer record, as to me it's not a major issue. I fully understand (and am unimaginably bored by) the gross / net discussion and am wholly sympathetic to the fact that our spending capacity is considerably less than our rivals and we are majorly hamstrung by having owners who lack the necessary resources and economic thrust (and, if we're being honest, the basic human qualities of integrity and truthfulness). I don't want to see Rafa go and am still generally confident that we'll find our way out of the current trough.

But that doesn't mean that I think he should be somehow immune from criticism. If I feel that his actions or decisions are having an adverse effect on our performances then I don't see it as some massive betrayal to point this out. People can then disagree as they fit. But the current tendency to dismiss all negative opinion out of hand, to absolve Rafa of all responsibility for our position and to suggest that any form of dissent signifies a lower loyalty score on the imaginary True Supporter gauge is, to me, blinkered, unhelpful and a bit cringeworthy.

That's all well and good and if the main criticism of Rafa was that his decision making could have been better and we should be in a better position than we are then that's a reasonable position and not one that could easily be dismissed.

The reason that people object to the criticism of the management on this site is the fact that the majority of people are not criticising him for those things but instead regurgitating crap that's been spoon fed by the media stating that the reason for our poor form is Rafa's unique ability to waste hundreds of millions in the transfer market when if the very simple concept of net and gross spend is applied then it's obvious that's a skewed and agenda driven application of the facts.

It's also cringeworthy reading tens or hundreds of posts that simply ignore the net/ gross concept and insist that somehow it doesn't matter. It's either a case of being unable the topic or the blinkers are on because it rips to shreds their main criticism of the manager.

[Shaggy]

That's all well and good and if the main criticism of Rafa was that his decision making could have been better and we should be in a better position than we are then that's a reasonable position and not one that could easily be dismissed.

The reason that people object to the criticism of the management on this site is the fact that the majority of people are not criticising him for those things but instead regurgitating crap that's been spoon fed by the media stating that the reason for our poor form is Rafa's unique ability to waste hundreds of millions in the transfer market when if the very simple concept of net and gross spend is applied then it's obvious that's a skewed and agenda driven application of the facts.

It's also cringeworthy reading tens or hundreds of posts that simply ignore the net/ gross concept and insist that somehow it doesn't matter. It's either a case of being unable the topic or the blinkers are on because it rips to shreds their main criticism of the manager.

Aye

[zimbo]

Of course people can disagree but I am not sure how good is the argument in favour of the disagreement. Rafa has himself said that he should take part of the blame (as well as all the backroom staff and players) for what happened this season but it's a bit harsh considering that players have been out of form since the beginning and the amount of injuries we've had this season to crucial players.

I'm sure we would have kicked on from where we were last season if Xabi didn't agitate for a move, and the Mascherano unrest didn't help.

Still Rafa managed to get £30m plus for Xabi and astutely replaced him with Aquilani (it remains to be seen how astute this signing has been though) and brought in Glen Johnson who has done very well for us up to now.

Our problem has been to ship out the players who haven't been performing, such as Babel, Voronin, Dossena & al, who would have given us more options in the absence of our more influential players, add to that our sudden incapacity at defending set pieces this season, which has cost us of some crucial victories. Last minute defeat against Lyon, complete no show in the first half against Fiorentina and second half collapse against Fulham comes to mind.

Irrelevant of all this is that we're going through a bad period and as a club we should all stick together. Imagine yourself in the middle of nowhere on a boat, where there's no other option but to stick together.

That's all well and good and if the main criticism of Rafa was that his decision making could have been better and we should be in a better position than we are then that's a reasonable position and not one that could easily be dismissed.

The reason that people object to the criticism of the management on this site is the fact that the majority of people are not criticising him for those things but instead regurgitating crap that's been spoon fed by the media stating that the reason for our poor form is Rafa's unique ability to waste hundreds of millions in the transfer market when if the very simple concept of net and gross spend is applied then it's obvious that's a skewed and agenda driven application of the facts.

It's also cringeworthy reading tens or hundreds of posts that simply ignore the net/ gross concept and insist that somehow it doesn't matter. It's either a case of being unable the topic or the blinkers are on because it rips to shreds their main criticism of the manager.

I don't think that's true. The majority of people seem pissed off that our performances and results are way below the standard that we would expect. When this is brought up, the spending argument is then inevitably introduced to somehow excuse mistakes that are made by both players and manager (I appreciate that such an assessment is purely subjective, but since when did being a football supporter rely on objectivity?).

As I said, I don't really have a problem with Rafa's signings in the main, nor do I think he's spent excessively when looked at in context. For me that's not the issue.

I can understand that people want to close ranks in a 'crisis' and become over-sensitive to any perceived slight. I do it myself when fans of other teams start spouting ludicrous theories and half-baked analyses of rafa's record.

I just don't think it helps to lump all criticism of the manager together as agenda-driven, media-led, knee-jerk tosh propagated by those who are somehow incapable of understanding the finer intellectual nuances of the game. Which is how the debate often seems to end up.

[The_weatherman]

I just don't think it helps to lump all criticism of the manager together as agenda-driven, media-led, knee-jerk tosh propagated by those who are somehow incapable of understanding the finer intellectual nuances of the game. Which is how the debate often seems to end up.

I think that this will always happen when the criticism gets over the top as it creates factions for and against. Honestly, crying out for the Rafa's head now is absurd IMO and way over the top and probably makes me more prone to leap to his defence.

[BFG]

I just don't think it helps to lump all criticism of the manager together as agenda-driven, media-led, knee-jerk tosh propagated by those who are somehow incapable of understanding the finer intellectual nuances of the game. Which is how the debate often seems to end up.

I don't really see a huge occurence of that myself though. It does happen occasionally but I think that's inevitable when the vast majority of the criticism is unfair and baseless, and when the central point of criticism is his transfer policy and not the results or performances.

There's several posters that have criticised him, even stated they've lost faith in him but apart from one or two over zealous supporters of Rafa (silly polls designed to alienate people etc) their opinions have been accepted just like anyone else's because you can't dismiss that position, the results haven't been good enough.

It's a debate that will polarise opinion because of the emotive subject but criticism of the manager should be backed up with reason and fact, not spoon fed cuntery from the media. People don't even need to look at the transfer record for something to be unhappy about (which I believe stands up to scrutiny against anyone's), the results are there for all to see and then it's down to whether you think Rafa will turn it around or not.