Now It's Grobbelars turn to have a go at Rafa

[Vermilion]

Two points to make:

1 - In the 10 seasons prior to Benitez taking over, we finished in the top four on 8 occasions (1 second, 3 thirds and 4 fourths). It's therefore a bit misleading to suggest that our finishes under Rafa represent a marked improvement on what had come before.

It's more misleading stating figures like the one above and using them as some sort of comaprison for today, as those ten years were at a time when competition wasn't anywhere as fierce as the prem today, so in todays climate i would say keeping us in the top 4 and challenging in europe every year bar 1, with 2 finals reached does represent improvement, other clubs have moved on financially, we have not, yet.

[zimbo]

I think that this will always happen when the criticism gets over the top as it creates factions for and against. Honestly, crying out for the Rafa's head now is absurd IMO and way over the top and probably makes me more prone to leap to his defence.

Well, for what it's worth I agree with that. I just don't feel that he can be absolved of all blame for the position we find ourselves in (and yes, I am aware of spending restrictions, a horrific run of injuries, Alonso's departure, defensive errors, the credit crunch, the Taliban, climate change, Jedward and the ongoing mystery of what kind of person would buy Chris Moyles' Parody Album before anyone starts).

[Guest]

Well, for what it's worth I agree with that. I just don't feel that he can be absolved of all blame for the position we find ourselves in (and yes, I am aware of spending restrictions, a horrific run of injuries, Alonso's departure, defensive errors, the credit crunch, the Taliban, climate change, Jedward and the ongoing mystery of what kind of person would buy Chris Moyles' Parody Album before anyone starts).

Now you're taking the piss.

[The_weatherman]

Well, for what it's worth I agree with that. I just don't feel that he can be absolved of all blame for the position we find ourselves in (and yes, I am aware of spending restrictions, a horrific run of injuries, Alonso's departure, defensive errors, the credit crunch, the Taliban, climate change, Jedward and the ongoing mystery of what kind of person would buy Chris Moyles' Parody Album before anyone starts).

I know you agree, and I think he could have done things differently as well and have been furious with him at times, but I try to keep the criticism fair, some people don't IMO.

[zimbo]

It's more misleading stating figures like the one above and using them as some sort of comaprison for today, as those ten years were at a time when competition wasn't anywhere as fierce as the prem today, so in todays climate i would say keeping us in the top 4 and challenging in europe every year bar 1, with 2 finals reached does represent improvement, other clubs have moved on financially, we have not.

The figures are factually correct and refer to the poster's implication that finishing in the top 4 was an infrequent occurrence before Rafa. Any judgements of the standard of the competing teams over that period are largely irrelevant, and don't belong here. (Although it might be worth suggesting that, given that we weren't raking in pots of Champions League cash, the gap between ourselves and the rest of the teams outside the top 4 was narrower than it has been over the last 5 years. Therefore our top 4 positions then were every bit an achievement as those that have come during Rafa's tenure.)

Now you're taking the piss.

Ahem...

I can understand that people want to close ranks in a 'crisis' and become over-sensitive to any perceived slight.

I know you agree, and I think he could have done things differently as well and have been furious with him at times, but I try to keep the criticism fair, some people don't IMO.

So long as the criticism can be backed up I don't have a problem with it, even if I don't necessarily agree with it all of the time.

[FatTony]

I'm sure we would have kicked on from where we were last season if Xabi didn't agitate for a move, and the Mascherano unrest didn't help.

agitate....are you serious?

According to Rafa, Alonso wasn't really part of his plans and wasn't rated as highly as most of us thought. Rafa wanted shot the year before and would've sold him for £10m so for people to keep using this as an excuse for our form this season (in defence of Rafa) is completely incorrect.

Fact is that Rafa wanted shot, would've sold for £10m and ended up getting £30m. He then purchased Aqualani (assuming that this was his second target after Barry) and therefore (in Rafa's eyes) strengthened the squad. With the extra money he was able to replace Arbeloa with £20m Johnson so we have strengthed considerably in both positions (again in Rafa's mind).

The agitation you talk of was instigated by Rafa's behaviour.

[Guest]

agitate....are you serious?

According to Rafa, Alonso wasn't really part of his plans and wasn't rated as highly as most of us thought. Rafa wanted shot the year before and would've sold him for £10m so for people to keep using this as an excuse for our form this season (in defence of Rafa) is completely incorrect.

Fact is that Rafa wanted shot, would've sold for £10m and ended up getting £30m. He then purchased Aqualani (assuming that this was his second target after Barry) and therefore (in Rafa's eyes) strengthened the squad. With the extra money he was able to replace Arbeloa with £20m Johnson so we have strengthed considerably in both positions (again in Rafa's mind).

The agitation you talk of was instigated by Rafa's behaviour.

No. You are purely speculating here.

[peekay]

The Scum have had some big sales that have driven their net spend down. £80m for Rent Boy - Ruud & Becks? went for big money in that time. And how they got £6m for Keiron Richardson i'll never know!

Also with respect to Chelsea, they made a huge splurge the year before Rafa joined. Cech, Joe Cole, Duff, Veron, Robben and a couple of other players were bought before Rafa joined. They were very near the finished article than us and outspent us.

Same with Manchester United. Having said that expensive or not, Ferguson has a great record of fitting molding and developing attacking players. Thats what generates so much money for him in sales. He does have the freedom of spending more money if his initial purchases are not up to mark though.

[FatTony]

No. You are purely speculating here.

Speculating? Its well documented that Rafa tried to sell Alonso off to several clubs the year before for between 10 and 15m, as Rafa would say, its fact.

[Vermilion]

The figures are factually correct and refer to the poster's implication that finishing in the top 4 was an infrequent occurrence before Rafa. Any judgements of the standard of the competing teams over that period are largely irrelevant, and don't belong here. (Although it might be worth suggesting that, given that we weren't raking in pots of Champions League cash, the gap between ourselves and the rest of the teams outside the top 4 was narrower than it has been over the last 5 years. Therefore our top 4 positions then were every bit an achievement as those that have come during Rafa's tenure.)

That's assuming all the extra money made from the Champions league under Rafa was spent on strengthening the squad, which it blatantly isn't/hasn't been.

[Guest]

Speculating? Its well documented that Rafa tried to sell Alonso off to several clubs the year before for between 10 and 15m, as Rafa would say, its fact.

And rightly so mate, Alonso was under performing.