Let's look on the positive side of things

[FatTony]

your right, we only lost 6 games thought it was 10 for some reason.

I still think its harder now though

Based on what though? The points totals indicate otherwise.

[Darkon]

I'm not sure that the argument that its harder now is actually accurate really, though this is something commonly said to defend Rafa's record against Houllier. You only have to look at the total points achieved by the champions to see that there is really very little between the two era's, and if anything, it was actually harder to get a win in Houlliers time.

99-00 91
00-01 80
01-02 87
02-03 83
03-04 90
total = 431

04-05 95
05-06 91
06-07 89
07-08 87
08-09 90
total = 452

Teams may have more quality (again a matter of opinion) but its all relative. Its just as hard to win the leauge as its always been, there have always generally been 2 teams that dominate, then it was Arsenal and Man Utd, now its Chelsea and Man Utd. To break up the top two is a great achievement and Rafa did it this year and Houllier did it in 2002.

On that comparison you'd still need on avg. 4 points more each season to be champions...

I still think the overall quality and strength of the league is better! Especially in top-4 the competition has grown stronger with Chelsea adding a lot and perhaps now man city as well.

[AFII]

Of course it's a lot tougher to win the league now than a few years ago. The league is also much better.

More teams can splash out £20m, £30m, £40m in the transfer market. A few clubs even more than that.

We can splash out around zero at the moment, that makes it very difficult trying to close the gap. It would have been a difference if Rafa had finished building the squad and only needed to replace a player with another player.

It takes time to build a squad and Rafa simply didn't got enough time or money to do it. More money means that it would go quicker, like City or Chelsea.

All City need is good manager and they would already be able to challenge for the title. All that because of money.

Give Rafa £200m net and we will almost guaranteed win the title. Give him zero and it's almost no chance that we will the title.

What we need is a new owner and a new stadium. The gap will grow year by year until that happens.

[FatTony]

On that comparison you'd still need on avg. 4 points more each season to be champions...

I still think the overall quality and strength of the league is better! Especially in top-4 the competition has grown stronger with Chelsea adding a lot and perhaps now man city as well.

which also indicates that its easier to get 3 points now than it was in Houlliers time...

I believe that there is more quality now (although that is pure conjecture), however, that doesn't mean its any harder to win as proportionally all the sides now have more money and and therefore more quality and depth, its all relative.

[red g]

which also indicates that its easier to get 3 points now than it was in Houlliers time...

I believe that there is more quality now (although that is pure conjecture), however, that doesn't mean its any harder to win as proportionally all the sides now have more money and and therefore more quality and depth, its all relative.

it does mean its harder to win for us though.......

[dww]

I think it mostly means that when the differences aren't huge and may be spread unevenly through different teams that the simple number of points needed to win the league is not a useful metric of how good the division is.

[FatTony]

it does mean its harder to win for us though.......

The initial point was that it was easier for Houllier than Rafa, which I don't agree with. I was referring to actually competing, not winning the league, and imo it is now easier to get points, as the tables show. I would however agree that it is now actually harder to win the title, because of the gulf in money between the top two clubs and the rest of us.

[Darkon]

The initial point was that it was easier for Houllier than Rafa, which I don't agree with. I was referring to actually competing, not winning the league, and imo it is now easier to get points, as the tables show. I would however agree that it is now actually harder to win the title, because of the gulf in money between the top two clubs and the rest of us.

No the initial argument from me was that it's harder to win the league now than it was under Houllier, which I stand by. It's harder for us to compete against chelsea and the scum and soon man city as well.

The other teams challenging for the title are much stronger than earlier, which leaves Rafa's task of winning the title harder.

[FatTony]

No the initial argument from me was that it's harder to win the league now than it was under Houllier, which I stand by. It's harder for us to compete against chelsea and the scum and soon man city as well.

The other teams challenging for the title are much stronger than earlier, which leaves Rafa's task of winning the title harder.

"The strenght of the league overall has risen a lot during the last 5 years because of the money influx and that makes Rafa's job that much harder than Houliiers (especially considering we have just about none of them)"

I didn't read that as you saying that its harder to win the league, just that the league is now stronger overall. Both are questionable, but as I've said, its relative. Yes there may be more quality in the league now, but then teams had fewer players each of that quality back then so its leveled out.

[Nicey]

Ok Lads another big weekend and another chance to take points on the top spot .. we did it last week lets see how the table shapes up at the weekend.

United tough game against Villa with vidic returning from a Virus who has not been at all that this season, Carrick playing at make shift CB there is a potential upset waiting to happen there if Villa turn up play 442 and go at them which i think they will.

Chelsea have gone from World beaters to back to back defeats followed by a piss poor draw in Eurpoe, theres the African cup looming and they face a resurgent Toffees side and finally Arsenal less Van Persie at our ground, it is in our hands with hopefully a full strenght side for the first time this season practically ..

We could be in for a great weekend

Hold your head up High and Dare to Believe again

[Vermilion]

No the initial argument from me was that it's harder to win the league now than it was under Houllier, which I stand by. It's harder for us to compete against chelsea and the scum and soon man city as well.

The other teams challenging for the title are much stronger than earlier, which leaves Rafa's task of winning the title harder.

Exactly, take Wenger as the example, able to win 2 titles before Chelsea turned up, hasn't really got close since, even though he's done it before and knows what it takes, which is often one of the criticisms trotted out about Rafa, that as he's not won it yet he doesn't know how to, well Wenger does, and he's having no luck either.

It's harder, and will get even harder still while we are at a disadvantage financially, that's just the reality, it can change yes, but for now it seems the debt is the priority.

[lickedlollipop]

Ok Lads another big weekend and another chance to take points on the top spot .. we did it last week lets see how the table shapes up at the weekend.

United tough game against Villa with vidic returning from a Virus who has not been at all that this season, Carrick playing at make shift CB there is a potential upset waiting to happen there if Villa turn up play 442 and go at them which i think they will.

Chelsea have gone from World beaters to back to back defeats followed by a piss poor draw in Eurpoe, theres the African cup looming and they face a resurgent Toffees side and finally Arsenal less Van Persie at our ground, it is in our hands with hopefully a full strenght side for the first time this season practically ..

We could be in for a great weekend

Hold your head up High and Dare to Believe again

[Nicey]

Chelsea Drop Points
Spurs Drop Points
City Drop Points
Come on Villa !
Impossible is nothing

[Reece]

Scum:

* 29 Kuszczak
* 03 Evra
* 06 Brown
* 15 Vidic
* 08 Anderson
* 11 Giggs
* 13 Park
* 16 Carrick
* 24 Fletcher
* 25 Valencia
* 10 Rooney

Substitutes

* 12 Foster,
* 30 De Laet,
* 28 Gibson,
* 07 Owen,
* 09 Berbatov,
* 19 Welbeck,
* 26 Obertan


Villa:

* 01 Friedel
* 02 L Young
* 05 Dunne
* 24 Cuellar
* 25 Warnock
* 06 Downing
* 07 A Young
* 08 Milner
* 19 Petrov
* 11 Agbonlahor
* 18 Heskey

Substitutes

* 22 Guzan,
* 23 Beye,
* 29 Collins,
* 04 Sidwell,
* 16 Delph,
* 20 Reo-Coker,
* 10 Carew


So they seem to have a few players back from injury, particularly in defence.

[The Erectile Banana]

Come on Villa!

Honey Monster Dunne to score the winner.