Enough ?

[Harv]

I don't dislike Mourihno simply because he riled up Ferguson and Wenger at the time, and I don't like them both. But if you look at it, Jose is classless and totally disrespectful at times. I don't want this club to be 'all about Mourihno's antics', and that's how he thrives. It's all about him.

Plus, his teams are generally defensive, play a more systematic game than Rafa, the only difference being is that he is more prone to 'hissy fits' during a game (such as changing a player after 10 mins) and that is down to his character again.

Fact is, Rafa is the only manager to have really got under his skin. He's never outsmarted Rafa.

Mourinho is an incredibly smart man, he knows exactly what he's going to say, and he knows the reactions it will achieve. Just like Fergie does.

nice guys finish last, especially in this game

Never out smarted Rafa?? I guess you never saw the league games where they crushed us then.....remember the League is the most important thing. I don't think you could say Rafa really outsmarted him in the Champions lge either. All our games where as tight as you can get, won by the one goal or penalties.

"hissy fits" subbing a player that is not putting in the effort, or changing the system when it clearly isn't working is not a "hissy fit". Thats called managing a team, seeing what the problems are and fixing the things before its too late....Rafa should try it.

I couldn't care how Mourinho's teams play either. A win is a win is a win. You win every game 1-0, you've won the title. His Porto team wasn't defence BTW. They had flair in abundance.

[Exiled_red]

It is, much better, and Rafa is a much better manager than he's being portrayed as by many on here.

As for utd having some average players too, well, count the number of times they've spent 20mill plus on players compared to us, and still their form has suffered with an injury crisis and lack of fitness in some, not losing Rooney has been a god send for them.

[Guest]

Mourinho is an incredibly smart man, he knows exactly what he's going to say, and he knows the reactions it will achieve. Just like Fergie does.

nice guys finish last, especially in this game

Never out smarted Rafa?? I guess you never saw the league games where they crushed us then.....remember the League is the most important thing. I don't think you could say Rafa really outsmarted him in the Champions lge either. All our games where as tight as you can get, won by the one goal or penalties.

"hissy fits" subbing a player that is not putting in the effort, or changing the system when it clearly isn't working is not a "hissy fit". Thats called managing a team, seeing what the problems are and fixing the things before its too late....Rafa should try it.

I couldn't care how Mourinho's teams play either. A win is a win is a win. You win every game 1-0, you've won the title. His Porto team wasn't defence BTW. They had flair in abundance.

He is so smart that he will never come here, as he won't have any money to spend.

He did beat Rafa in the league in the beginning, after his well known 'spending spree', whilst Rafa was wheeling and dealing to sign players. You cannot compare unless you're on an equal footing. Mourihno had all the resources and Rafa outsmarted him with a team worth half of Chelsea's team.

Even winning by penalties is deemed winning, as you say it man. Rafa had the better of him, and the way Jose used to rant, is a testament to that.

[Armchairkopite]

To say that none of this is the managers fault is as simplistic as to say that its all his fault. Its the collective responsibility of the manager, the players and the board.

The way I see it, there are many problems with this club at the moment.

Tactically, we seem to be very predictable and too defensive. Its all very negative, like last night for example, we remove the attacking Deggen and bring on Skrtel which you can only presume was a move to tighten up the defence and head for penalties, against a team bottom of the table in the championship.Disagree, I think Rafa was protecting him here because of a lack of game time, the Rafa of old might have done this for tactical reasons but not last night. Rafa has on numerous occasions removed an attacking player for a defensive player when we're chasing the game. Bennayoun had a poor game last night, but he's been one of our best players so far this season, he adds something extra in attack yet he starts on the bench more often than not.Bench player, fits and starts and the left doesn't suit him imo Its almost as though Rafa is thinking more defensively before the ball is even kicked against far lesser squads.I dont think this is really the case tbh, agasin an old charachter trait which i feel he is dispelling

Playing Torres up front on his own all the time in England is questionable and one of the reasons I think he's getting so many injuries. Its too much for the lad, too much work and he's getting battered. With no width we're forever looking for the killer ball to Torres, but its all too narrow and now very easy to defend against. Put two defenders on Torres and who have they got to worry about coming in from a wide position...Kuyt? Playing Gerrard behind him is also a problem. Yes, the pair (when fit) have a great record for scoring goals, but without Alonso spoon-feeding them, this season they're feeding on scraps.Nail on mate

Rafa's turnover of players is too high, its been like a merry-go-round over the last 5 years. This is down to a couple of things, the transfer budget, how he decides to spend it and his inability to hold on to a want away player.He should have tried to hold onto one or two but we dont know the full circumstances Over the first few seasons, Rafa was spending big money on lots of players, trying to make the budget spread further than it should. Personally, I think he should've kept more of Houlliers squad and instead spent big on a couple of world class players each transfer window, easing Houlliers squad out over a longer period. Playing with the formation he does, its going to be hard to keep our attacking resources all happy, and over the last few years we've seen our strike force reduce steadily to what it is now, one world class striker and one average kid. Everytime a player seems to have a grumble and wants away because of the lack of starts, they seem to go off without so much of a discussion highlighting the fact that Rafa does not seem to be a great man manager.Who has gone on to better things that we have lost money on though? The thing is, sticking to this formation means that there's no light on the horizon for our second striker and the reason we'll never win the league because Torres will never remain fit enough to last a season and we'll be left with a second rate striker as a replacement. Keane, Crouch, Bellamy all half decent strikers and all moved on to be left with Ngog.To be fair money from these players probably went towards buying Torres etc. so again has he had the funds?

Gerrard for me this season has been nothing short of a disgrace. He is the most complete footballer in the world, you could play him anywhere other than goals and he would be capable of getting MOM, but his attitude this season has been abysmal. His head is going down to quickly and he's been absolutely anonymous in a number of games this season. I just hope that this is down to this niggling groin injury thats been reported and that he remembers this if he decides to leave at the end of the season. The one thing that worries me, and this is only reading into things, I think Gerrard has either lost belief in Rafa, or has no belief in some of the players at the club and a lot of this poor form is sulking.Nail on mate

Confidence has been shot to pieces. We've been poor since pre-season, completely outplayed by a struggling Atheltico Madrid in the summer and since then things have only improved in a couple of one off matches. I only see this confidence returning when we have the majority of our best starting 11 fit, and if they are Rafa needs to field them and not rest one of two players because the balance of our staring 11 is almost perfect, you change one or two players and its gone.I have said it umptenn times preseason killed us.

I don't have faith in a number of players at the club being of the quality needed to challenge. Kuyt, Lucas, Ngog, Babel, Insua, Skrtel, Deggen are just not good enough to start. This season, Kuyt, Insua and Lucas have started most games and are just not up to it. I think many of us have been so keen to see some positives in what has become an unbearable season that we're looking for any half decent touch or pass as evidence that one or two of the players might have what it takes. We're getting so used to watching the poor performances that when the likes of Ngog, Lucas or Insua make just one decent pass or tackle we big it up as a good performance, when in reality, they're just very average players.Some of the players you mention have got potntial but at the moment i take your point we need the real deal

To turn this around, Torres needs a decent experienced strike partner who doesn't have to cost a fortune, and I'd have a preference for a big lump like Carew. Gerrard needs to sit alongside Mascherano, Maxi needs to be an instant success and replace Kuyt permanently, whilst Riera returns on the left. Aurelio needs to replace Insua, Johnson needs to get fit (as we have no decent replacement...), and Agger needs a decent partner to share the starts with Carra (Skrtel isn't it). The issue then is just where does the £20m Aquilani fit in? Feck off with the dinosaur Carew how about we get Gerrard closer to Torres and slip in Aquilian everything else I agree with

We have a heck of a job on our hands now to get into the Champions League next season and Ireally worry for us if we don't.

Welcome mate, top first post

[Shaggy]

To say that none of this is the managers fault is as simplistic as to say that its all his fault. Its the collective responsibility of the manager, the players and the board.

The way I see it, there are many problems with this club at the moment.

Tactically, we seem to be very predictable and too defensive. Its all very negative, like last night for example, we remove the attacking Deggen and bring on Skrtel which you can only presume was a move to tighten up the defence and head for penalties, against a team bottom of the table in the championship. Rafa has on numerous occasions removed an attacking player for a defensive player when we're chasing the game. Bennayoun had a poor game last night, but he's been one of our best players so far this season, he adds something extra in attack yet he starts on the bench more often than not. Its almost as though Rafa is thinking more defensively before the ball is even kicked against far lesser squads.

Playing Torres up front on his own all the time in England is questionable and one of the reasons I think he's getting so many injuries. Its too much for the lad, too much work and he's getting battered. With no width we're forever looking for the killer ball to Torres, but its all too narrow and now very easy to defend against. Put two defenders on Torres and who have they got to worry about coming in from a wide position...Kuyt? Playing Gerrard behind him is also a problem. Yes, the pair (when fit) have a great record for scoring goals, but without Alonso spoon-feeding them, this season they're feeding on scraps.

Rafa's turnover of players is too high, its been like a merry-go-round over the last 5 years. This is down to a couple of things, the transfer budget, how he decides to spend it and his inability to hold on to a want away player. Over the first few seasons, Rafa was spending big money on lots of players, trying to make the budget spread further than it should. Personally, I think he should've kept more of Houlliers squad and instead spent big on a couple of world class players each transfer window, easing Houlliers squad out over a longer period. Playing with the formation he does, its going to be hard to keep our attacking resources all happy, and over the last few years we've seen our strike force reduce steadily to what it is now, one world class striker and one average kid. Everytime a player seems to have a grumble and wants away because of the lack of starts, they seem to go off without so much of a discussion highlighting the fact that Rafa does not seem to be a great man manager. The thing is, sticking to this formation means that there's no light on the horizon for our second striker and the reason we'll never win the league because Torres will never remain fit enough to last a season and we'll be left with a second rate striker as a replacement. Keane, Crouch, Bellamy all half decent strikers and all moved on to be left with Ngog.

Gerrard for me this season has been nothing short of a disgrace. He is the most complete footballer in the world, you could play him anywhere other than goals and he would be capable of getting MOM, but his attitude this season has been abysmal. His head is going down to quickly and he's been absolutely anonymous in a number of games this season. I just hope that this is down to this niggling groin injury thats been reported and that he remembers this if he decides to leave at the end of the season. The one thing that worries me, and this is only reading into things, I think Gerrard has either lost belief in Rafa, or has no belief in some of the players at the club and a lot of this poor form is sulking.

Confidence has been shot to pieces. We've been poor since pre-season, completely outplayed by a struggling Atheltico Madrid in the summer and since then things have only improved in a couple of one off matches. I only see this confidence returning when we have the majority of our best starting 11 fit, and if they are Rafa needs to field them and not rest one of two players because the balance of our staring 11 is almost perfect, you change one or two players and its gone.

I don't have faith in a number of players at the club being of the quality needed to challenge. Kuyt, Lucas, Ngog, Babel, Insua, Skrtel, Deggen are just not good enough to start. This season, Kuyt, Insua and Lucas have started most games and are just not up to it. I think many of us have been so keen to see some positives in what has become an unbearable season that we're looking for any half decent touch or pass as evidence that one or two of the players might have what it takes. We're getting so used to watching the poor performances that when the likes of Ngog, Lucas or Insua make just one decent pass or tackle we big it up as a good performance, when in reality, they're just very average players.

To turn this around, Torres needs a decent experienced strike partner who doesn't have to cost a fortune, and I'd have a preference for a big lump like Carew. Gerrard needs to sit alongside Mascherano, Maxi needs to be an instant success and replace Kuyt permanently, whilst Riera returns on the left. Aurelio needs to replace Insua, Johnson needs to get fit (as we have no decent replacement...), and Agger needs a decent partner to share the starts with Carra (Skrtel isn't it). The issue then is just where does the £20m Aquilani fit in?

We have a heck of a job on our hands now to get into the Champions League next season and Ireally worry for us if we don't.

Welcome Taxi.

Totally agree with you about Gerrard.

However the point about selling Bellamy, Crouch and Keane really irks me. I keep hearing this. If we hadn't sold Bellamy there'd be no Torres, Crouch wanted to go and we got almost a full refund on Keane who was ****ing useless. What's the problem there?

[Exiled_red]

To say that none of this is the managers fault is as simplistic as to say that its all his fault. Its the collective responsibility of the manager, the players and the board.

The way I see it, there are many problems with this club at the moment.

Tactically, we seem to be very predictable and too defensive. Its all very negative, like last night for example, we remove the attacking Deggen and bring on Skrtel which you can only presume was a move to tighten up the defence and head for penalties, against a team bottom of the table in the championship. Rafa has on numerous occasions removed an attacking player for a defensive player when we're chasing the game. Bennayoun had a poor game last night, but he's been one of our best players so far this season, he adds something extra in attack yet he starts on the bench more often than not. Its almost as though Rafa is thinking more defensively before the ball is even kicked against far lesser squads.

Playing Torres up front on his own all the time in England is questionable and one of the reasons I think he's getting so many injuries. Its too much for the lad, too much work and he's getting battered. With no width we're forever looking for the killer ball to Torres, but its all too narrow and now very easy to defend against. Put two defenders on Torres and who have they got to worry about coming in from a wide position...Kuyt? Playing Gerrard behind him is also a problem. Yes, the pair (when fit) have a great record for scoring goals, but without Alonso spoon-feeding them, this season they're feeding on scraps.

Rafa's turnover of players is too high, its been like a merry-go-round over the last 5 years. This is down to a couple of things, the transfer budget, how he decides to spend it and his inability to hold on to a want away player. Over the first few seasons, Rafa was spending big money on lots of players, trying to make the budget spread further than it should. Personally, I think he should've kept more of Houlliers squad and instead spent big on a couple of world class players each transfer window, easing Houlliers squad out over a longer period. Playing with the formation he does, its going to be hard to keep our attacking resources all happy, and over the last few years we've seen our strike force reduce steadily to what it is now, one world class striker and one average kid. Everytime a player seems to have a grumble and wants away because of the lack of starts, they seem to go off without so much of a discussion highlighting the fact that Rafa does not seem to be a great man manager. The thing is, sticking to this formation means that there's no light on the horizon for our second striker and the reason we'll never win the league because Torres will never remain fit enough to last a season and we'll be left with a second rate striker as a replacement. Keane, Crouch, Bellamy all half decent strikers and all moved on to be left with Ngog.

Gerrard for me this season has been nothing short of a disgrace. He is the most complete footballer in the world, you could play him anywhere other than goals and he would be capable of getting MOM, but his attitude this season has been abysmal. His head is going down to quickly and he's been absolutely anonymous in a number of games this season. I just hope that this is down to this niggling groin injury thats been reported and that he remembers this if he decides to leave at the end of the season. The one thing that worries me, and this is only reading into things, I think Gerrard has either lost belief in Rafa, or has no belief in some of the players at the club and a lot of this poor form is sulking.

Confidence has been shot to pieces. We've been poor since pre-season, completely outplayed by a struggling Atheltico Madrid in the summer and since then things have only improved in a couple of one off matches. I only see this confidence returning when we have the majority of our best starting 11 fit, and if they are Rafa needs to field them and not rest one of two players because the balance of our staring 11 is almost perfect, you change one or two players and its gone.

I don't have faith in a number of players at the club being of the quality needed to challenge. Kuyt, Lucas, Ngog, Babel, Insua, Skrtel, Deggen are just not good enough to start. This season, Kuyt, Insua and Lucas have started most games and are just not up to it. I think many of us have been so keen to see some positives in what has become an unbearable season that we're looking for any half decent touch or pass as evidence that one or two of the players might have what it takes. We're getting so used to watching the poor performances that when the likes of Ngog, Lucas or Insua make just one decent pass or tackle we big it up as a good performance, when in reality, they're just very average players.

To turn this around, Torres needs a decent experienced strike partner who doesn't have to cost a fortune, and I'd have a preference for a big lump like Carew. Gerrard needs to sit alongside Mascherano, Maxi needs to be an instant success and replace Kuyt permanently, whilst Riera returns on the left. Aurelio needs to replace Insua, Johnson needs to get fit (as we have no decent replacement...), and Agger needs a decent partner to share the starts with Carra (Skrtel isn't it). The issue then is just where does the £20m Aquilani fit in?

We have a heck of a job on our hands now to get into the Champions League next season and Ireally worry for us if we don't.

I don't think anyone is saying none of this is the managers fault, the problem is alot of people are aportioning all the blame to Rafa which as you say is also wrong.

The replacing Degen with Skrtel wasn't a play for penalties approach it was almost certainly because Degen was tired and couldn't have played on for another 30mins.

The problem is a lack of width, last night on the right we kept running into traffic and Benayoun was playing too narrow so we had no outlet on the left. Last season the width provide by Riera on the left and diagonal cross field balls allowed us to make the most of the space in these areas and contributed to Kuyt's good season and shows why he has been so poor this season. This season we aren't spreading the play and changing the point of the attack.

Alot of sides seem to be playing with one up front, and IMO Torres works better in this system than playing in a more traditional front 2 (although that could have more to do with who is partnering him).

I also don't think some of the players are half as bad as people on here are making out, alot are just suffering from a lack of confidence. Lucas and Ngog are young players that have come in for a lot of critisism, but both have probably played alot more football than was intended at the start of the season but have done well the majority of the time but have taken flack for the teams failings. Insua too is better than he's showing at the moment, and IMO should be taken out of the firing line.

[Exiled_red]

Welcome Taxi.

Totally agree with you about Gerrard.

However the point about selling Bellamy, Crouch and Keane really irks me. I keep hearing this. If we hadn't sold Bellamy there'd be no Torres, Crouch wanted to go and we got almost a full refund on Keane who was ****ing useless. What's the problem there?

Absolutely

[Armchairkopite]

I don't think anyone is saying none of this is the managers fault, the problem is alot of people are aportioning all the blame to Rafa which as you say is also wrong.

The replacing Degen with Skrtel wasn't a play for penalties approach it was almost certainly because Degen was tired and couldn't have played on for another 30mins.

The problem is a lack of width, last night on the right we kept running into traffic and Benayoun was playing too narrow so we had no outlet on the left. Last season the width provide by Riera on the left and diagonal cross field balls allowed us to make the most of the space in these areas and contributed to Kuyt's good season and shows why he has been so poor this season. This season we aren't spreading the play and changing the point of the attack.

Alot of sides seem to be playing with one up front, and IMO Torres works better in this system than playing in a more traditional front 2 (although that could have more to do with who is partnering him).

I also don't think some of the players are half as bad as people on here are making out, alot are just suffering from a lack of confidence. Lucas and Ngog are young players that have come in for a lot of critisism, but both have probably played alot more football than was intended at the start of the season but have done well the majority of the time but have taken flack for the teams failings. Insua too is better than he's showing at the moment, and IMO should be taken out of the firing line.

Top post mate, Insua needs a break and Reiara cant come back quick enough.

[Harv]

He is so smart that he will never come here, as he won't have any money to spend.

He did beat Rafa in the league in the beginning, after his well known 'spending spree', whilst Rafa was wheeling and dealing to sign players. You cannot compare unless you're on an equal footing. Mourihno had all the resources and Rafa outsmarted him with a team worth half of Chelsea's team.

Even winning by penalties is deemed winning, as you say it man. Rafa had the better of him, and the way Jose used to rant, is a testament to that.

Ranieri had the spendin spree dude. Mourinho just bought in the final touches (Drogba, Carvalho & Essien).

If Rafa had of bought quality rather than trying to stretch his budget over 3-4 positions he would have been better off IMO. 5 years on and the ****er still hasn't signed a decent bloody winger...thats just ****ing not on mate. Its idiotic.

winning by penos and a dodgy Luis Garcia goal is not outsmarting someone dude. Sure its a win, and it was ****ing fantastic at the time. But we hardly crushed them, like they did us on numerous occasions in the league.

[Taxi]

Welcome Taxi.

Totally agree with you about Gerrard.

However the point about selling Bellamy, Crouch and Keane really irks me. I keep hearing this. If we hadn't sold Bellamy there'd be no Torres, Crouch wanted to go and we got almost a full refund on Keane who was ****ing useless. What's the problem there?

The main issue with this is that fact that we've ended up with no experienced partner for Torres and playing him as we do is not doing our best asset any good. The point about Crouch leaving because he wanted too is one of my other points, that being that playing with a lone striker will always mean we have this problem.

Our opinions on the quality of each of these strikers may differ, but the fact remains that we have no cover/partner for Torres other than Ngog.

[Harv]

Welcome Taxi.

Totally agree with you about Gerrard.

However the point about selling Bellamy, Crouch and Keane really irks me. I keep hearing this. If we hadn't sold Bellamy there'd be no Torres, Crouch wanted to go and we got almost a full refund on Keane who was ****ing useless. What's the problem there?

True, but i would rather have Bellers than Kuyt. There was time when Jol offered us double figures for Dirk.....meanwhile Bellamy has become one of the most dangerous players in the league.

[Armchairkopite]

The main issue with this is that fact that we've ended up with no experienced partner for Torres and playing him as we do is not doing our best asset any good. The point about Crouch leaving because he wanted too is one of my other points, that being that playing with a lone striker will always mean we have this problem.

Our opinions on the quality of each of these strikers may differ, but the fact remains that we have no cover/partner for Torres other than Ngog.

If Gerrard plays closer and actully gives a **** plus we have a couple of wide players i dont think this will be as much of an issue.

[the rev leeroy brown]

Ranieri had the spendin spree dude. Mourinho just bought in the final touches (Drogba, Carvalho & Essien).

If Rafa had of bought quality rather than trying to stretch his budget over 3-4 positions he would have been better off IMO. 5 years on and the ****er still hasn't signed a decent bloody winger...thats just ****ing not on mate. Its idiotic.

winning by penos and a dodgy Luis Garcia goal is not outsmarting someone dude. Sure its a win, and it was ****ing fantastic at the time. But we hardly crushed them, like they did us on numerous occasions in the league.

spot on. yes a overhaul of the squad was required but countless average players have been bought for mid-money and sold on. he's had the chance to buy a big name winger ( joaquin etc... ) and passed.

[Guest]

Ranieri had the spendin spree dude. Mourinho just bought in the final touches (Drogba, Carvalho & Essien).

If Rafa had of bought quality rather than trying to stretch his budget over 3-4 positions he would have been better off IMO. 5 years on and the ****er still hasn't signed a decent bloody winger...thats just ****ing not on mate. Its idiotic.

winning by penos and a dodgy Luis Garcia goal is not outsmarting someone dude. Sure its a win, and it was ****ing fantastic at the time. But we hardly crushed them, like they did us on numerous occasions in the league.

I haven't said we crushed them mate, but time and again we got the better of them. As for the winger part, I don't think Rafa plays with a typical winger, and neither does Mourihno. They seem to favour more 'rounded' players if you know what I mean, ones who can play in a number of positions. Maybe the signing of Maxi is a step in trying something different I don't know, but I'm not sure he's a winger per se, though I can't vouch for that as I haven't seen him play much.

I'm sure Rafa would have done a lot better if had more latitude in the transfer market. Mourihno still had to splash a fair decent amount of money on Drogba and al, all very expensive players, unlike Rafa who could afford one of them, not 3 at the same time.

[Maxiedge]

For me the problem is quite simple. You take out 5 of our best players (Reina, Johnson, Mascherano, Torres and Gerrard) and we become a pretty average side. The replacements are not as good as, lets say for example, Birminghams 1st XI. So even though we have an aura of a top side in and around the club, on the actual pitch the players arent up to it. How many games have there been when we've started well but have let the opposition back into the game. That's basically them sussing out we're there for the taking.

the following players have had too much game time this season and it's cost us:

- Insua
- Babel
- Kuyt (on the right)
- Lucas

Improving the squad is something that is achievable even with our budget and I think Rafa knows this. Maxi Rodriguez is a good start.