Benitez has lost the players

[Rich]

I'm saying we wouldnt have seen that £9 million owed to us

SO it might have been worth purchasing Johnson for £8 million (because hes worth more than that) for resale value alone at least you would recoup some of the £9 million you were NEVER going to get from Portsmouth

I'm not saying Rafa didnt want Johnson and was forced into the deal, I'm saying that people need to be wary when saying he spunked £17 million on him which he could have spent better elsewhere. Because in real cash terms Johnson cost nowhere near £17 million

To be honest I'm pretty sure that Rafa really wanted Johnson and was happy to do a deal which saw the money owed on Crouch removed and another "£8m" heading Portsmouth's way. My problem is that Johnson isn't a very good defender and £17m is way over priced for someone who plays in defence yet can't defend.

To conclude, Rafa was happy to spend £17m on him...

[Craig_H]

Bit of a simplistic idea

Johnson's £17 million valuation included £9 million owed to us from Portsmouth for Crouch. IF we hadnt bought Johnson we wouldnt have seen any of that £9 million back.

So I'd argue in real terms of budget (hard cash spent) Johnson probably only cost £8 million

Aquilani's fee is also dependant on appearances and ultimately success we have on the pitch.

I think the initial downpayment for Aquilani is something like £5 million with only a small proportion of the remaining fee in guaranteed installments something like £1-2 million per annum with a maximum upto £20 million depending on appearances etc.....

The payment breakdown for Aquilani's been posted several times and i think we've already paid close to £10m with another £5m due in June, so by the end of the season, we'll have paid something like £15m for him. The rest of it, IIRC, is based on appearances (which we wont have to worry about) and CL qualification (which we wont have to worry about).

[Craig_H]

There seems to be a pattern here. The dressing room seems fine during and after home games, yet after away games Rafa always seems to lose these pesky players. Hmmmmm?

Does he make them sing on the bus, or does he make them pair up and hold hands so no one gets lost? Maybe he’s some sort of practical joker who keeps them up all night with his horseplay and mischievous pranks.

There must be a reason it only happens with the away fixtures, I just can't think what?

I think part of it is down to mentality - at home, it's natural to be more attack-minded and our opponents (barring the big sides who win or challenge for trophies) tend to set their stall out to try and keep a clean sheet and not concede, hoping to maybe pinch a goal via a set piece or through the one clear cut chance they're likely to make.

Unfortunately for us, Rafa uses the mentality when WE are the away side, even at places like Portsmouth and Wolves.

[PTP]

To be honest I'm pretty sure that Rafa really wanted Johnson and was happy to do a deal which saw the money owed on Crouch removed and another "£8m" heading Portsmouth's way. My problem is that Johnson isn't a very good defender and £17m is way over priced for someone who plays in defence yet can't defend.

To conclude, Rafa was happy to spend £17m on him...

See – i don’t have many issues with the signing of Johnson. For years we’ve moaned that our fullbacks aren’t attacking enough and it’s a major reason why we haven’t produced the attacking football of arsenal Chelsea and united. We get one of the best attacking right backs in the country and we slag him off for not being able to defend -

I’d also go as far too say, that on paper at least – during the summer, i thought the prospect of a johnson/kuyt right side was pretty good and could work well if managed well (unfortunately johnson has suffered with injuries and kuyt with confidence/form).

I’d then even go on to add that – having been to soooo many home games over the last god knows how many years, were 90% of the teams who come to Anfield play with 10 men behind the ball – A good team, and imo with the players we have, should be setting up at home too go out attacking, peggin them back – meaning they only have one man up front – and imo, I’d be confident that say carra/agger, with mascher sitting in front of them should be more than capable of containing that one man.......so in that sense, the extra attacker in Johnson was much needed.

Whilst i see the sentiment, that in hindshight, we might have been better signing a cheaper right back, and spending the money elsewhere......iirc i believe rafa signed johnson, and was expecting for money to sign one other big player, and it fell through.

Plus we did need a right back with arbeloa shipping out – i can’t think of any right back out there that was available. I also think that if, or when or pray, that should we get our act together both on and off the pitch, Johnson can have a big part too play for us.

I do agree though, that the aquilani deal has turned out to be a shocker.

_____________

[The Birdman]

I find it hilarious that people say Johnson 'can't defend' he has won the PL with Chelsea, the FA Cup with Portsmouth is the regular for that pesky attack mided Italian coach Cappelo but still he 'can't defend'.
That phrase or opinion is what you get by watching too much sky tv or reading 'insights' from journalists who have no better football knowledge than the average man on the street, the only difference is one did a journalism degree others didn't.

I guess thoughout his whole career Johnson has been lucky that no team decided to attack down their left hand side.
Yes he is an attacking full back and yes he will be caught out of position when we lose the ball but that is part and parcel of his role. You don't play over 200 games for club and country by the age of 25 as a full back if you 'can't defend'
These same media people have tried to claim Ashley Cole couldn't defend in the past but he's the only defender to get the better of Ronaldo every single time he played against him.

[Craig_H]

See – i don’t have many issues with the signing of Johnson. For years we’ve moaned that our fullbacks aren’t attacking enough and it’s a major reason why we haven’t produced the attacking football of arsenal Chelsea and united. We get one of the best attacking right backs in the country and we slag him off for not being able to defend -

I’d also go as far too say, that on paper at least – during the summer, i thought the prospect of a johnson/kuyt right side was pretty good and could work well if managed well (unfortunately johnson has suffered with injuries and kuyt with confidence/form).

I’d then even go on to add that – having been to soooo many home games over the last god knows how many years, were 90% of the teams who come to Anfield play with 10 men behind the ball – A good team, and imo with the players we have, should be setting up at home too go out attacking, peggin them back – meaning they only have one man up front – and imo, I’d be confident that say carra/agger, with mascher sitting in front of them should be more than capable of containing that one man.......so in that sense, the extra attacker in Johnson was much needed.

Whilst i see the sentiment, that in hindshight, we might have been better signing a cheaper right back, and spending the money elsewhere......iirc i believe rafa signed johnson, and was expecting for money to sign one other big player, and it fell through.

Plus we did need a right back with arbeloa shipping out – i can’t think of any right back out there that was available. I also think that if, or when or pray, that should we get our act together both on and off the pitch, Johnson can have a big part too play for us.

I do agree though, that the aquilani deal has turned out to be a shocker.

_____________

Every single word, spot on.

I do also think, however, that it's always good to have two different types of options for that kind of position, a Johnson type for the home games against most of the league who sit back and try to make it hard for us, as you said.

But then, also a more solid version who isnt so adventurous, but you know will keep solid and work as a cohesive part of the defensive unit, for more tricky games when you know you'll be up against it.

[PTP]

exactly - he is an 'attacking' full back - which a few years ago, everyone screamed about how we lacked one so badly..

I think he 'can defend for an attacking fullback' if you like, ie someone like Chimbonda is an attacking full back who really can't defend - but compared to a defending full back who deosn't attack he may get caught out. If our team as whole - manager and players, got the tactics right, played with confidence etc - then the 'lack' of defensive quality from johnson would go un-noticied.

Unless people know off some magical full back out there, that defends like carragher, attacks like torres, all at the same time, and was available for less than £10m??? then i don't think we can complain too much - i just think any defensive issues with johnson have looked a hell of lot worse and been highlighted because of how wank the rest of the team has been.

[Tee]

The notion of Johnson's inability to defend is based (for me anyway) on the several occasions he has been horribly exposed this season leading to goals or clear goalscoring opportunities for the opposition.

I hope that with time he will improve but I have my reservations. Too easily beaten 1 on 1 and he displays poor defensive positional sense.

Attacking wise he is a breath of fresh air, so I think the best solution would be for us to spend more time in the opponents half attacking. Doing what he does best. But he does need to work on his defending and hopefully with Rafa's guidance and Capello's guidance this my yet come.

[Craig_H]

exactly - he is an 'attacking' full back - which a few years ago, everyone screamed about how we lacked one so badly..

I think he 'can defend for an attacking fullback' if you like, ie someone like Chimbonda is an attacking full back who really can't defend - but compared to a defending full back who deosn't attack he may get caught out. If our team as whole - manager and players, got the tactics right, played with confidence etc - then the 'lack' of defensive quality from johnson would go un-noticied.

Unless people know off some magical full back out there, that defends like carragher, attacks like torres, all at the same time, and was available for less than £10m??? then i don't think we can complain too much - i just think any defensive issues with johnson have looked a hell of lot worse and been highlighted because of how wank the rest of the team has been.

I personally wouldnt say Johnson 'cant' defend, but in terms of solidity, someone like Arbeloa was far more solid, consistent and reliable IMO. Not spectacular or 'flashy' but he got the job done more consistently for me.

There's a time for a Johnson and a time for an Arbeloa - which is why i'd have hung onto both.

[PTP]

Every single word, spot on.

I do also think, however, that it's always good to have two different types of options for that kind of position, a Johnson type for the home games against most of the league who sit back and try to make it hard for us, as you said.

But then, also a more solid version who isnt so adventurous, but you know will keep solid and work as a cohesive part of the defensive unit, for more tricky games when you know you'll be up against it.

- well in the summer, i really hoped we'd sign johnson, and somehow manage to blag arbeloa to stay for another season. - Degen is an attacking full back who is just ****, and always injured, which didn't help either - once we knew arbeloa was gone, then we should have maybe looked at selling degen and trying to find a more defensive full back to come in as cover/competition for Johnson.


All of the above though point to a couple of things for that we all know - i don't care who is too blame - but i do feel that both the owners and rafa have got too many things wrong, and have done for some time but the cracks have always been papered over due to the quality we do have here.

thinking about it - we haven't half ****ed up with signing damaged goods........it may be rafa's fault, or it may be because thats all we could get with what little money we had - it's prob a bit of both, rafa being told he had no money, knowing he need cover in certain areas, and scraping about and taking gambles. -

atm - Degen, Aurelio, Aquailani, all still at the club, all had serious injury problems before we signed them, all have struggled for fitness since being here, and all have left us seriously short in vital areas.

[PTP]

The notion of Johnson's inability to defend is based (for me anyway) on the several occasions he has been horribly exposed this season leading to goals or clear goalscoring opportunities for the opposition.

I hope that with time he will improve but I have my reservations. Too easily beaten 1 on 1 and he displays poor defensive positional sense.

Attacking wise he is a breath of fresh air, so I think the best solution would be for us to spend more time in the opponents half attacking. Doing what he does best. But he does need to work on his defending and hopefully with Rafa's guidance and Capello's guidance this my yet come.

aye totally agree - he has been caught out at times, but he has also defended well at times and no-one mentions this - what he adds to the attacking play should make up for his defensive problems - IF....the team was et up well, and peforming - i'm not a professional coach - but when you look at our team on paper, especially when we play with TWO holding mids, Johnson should be allowed to bomb without worrying whats behind him, surely you tell one of the holding mids to offer support/cover??


ah **** it - it's home time

[Craig_H]

- well in the summer, i really hoped we'd sign johnson, and somehow manage to blag arbeloa to stay for another season. - Degen is an attacking full back who is just ****, and always injured, which didn't help either - once we knew arbeloa was gone, then we should have maybe looked at selling degen and trying to find a more defensive full back to come in as cover/competition for Johnson.


All of the above though point to a couple of things for that we all know - i don't care who is too blame - but i do feel that both the owners and rafa have got too many things wrong, and have done for some time but the cracks have always been papered over due to the quality we do have here.

thinking about it - we haven't half ****ed up with signing damaged goods........it may be rafa's fault, or it may be because thats all we could get with what little money we had - it's prob a bit of both, rafa being told he had no money, knowing he need cover in certain areas, and scraping about and taking gambles. -

atm - Degen, Aurelio, Aquailani, all still at the club, all had serious injury problems before we signed them, all have struggled for fitness since being here, and all have left us seriously short in vital areas.

I wouldnt argue with much there.

Your point about rafa 'taking gambles' reminds me of another analogy someone once put to me - his tranfer policy, too often, is akin to the punter who placed tonnes of £10 and £20 bets on 12 fold accumulators which never win, and he comforts himself knowing that he's only losing £10 or £20 at a time, forgetting how much they add upto. Whereas his Torres/Mascherano type signings are more like the gambler who puts £500 on a single or double, for the likes of Barcelona & Rangers to win at home on a -1 handicap. His double may only add upto a price of even money, but more often than not, he walks away with the best part of a grand, as a return from his original £500 stake.

[PTP]

I wouldnt argue with much there.

Your point about rafa 'taking gambles' reminds me of another analogy someone once put to me - his tranfer policy, too often, is akin to the punter who placed tonnes of £10 and £20 bets on 12 fold accumulators which never win, and he comforts himself knowing that he's only losing £10 or £20 at a time, forgetting how much they add upto. Whereas his Torres/Mascherano type signings are more like the gambler who puts £500 on a single or double, for the likes of Barcelona & Rangers to win at home on a -1 handicap. His double may only add upto a price of even money, but more often than not, he walks away with the best part of a grand, as a return from his original £500 stake.

bizarrely i know what you mean as a few mates where talking about something similar the other day at the game......there is 3 of them in a group, each put a tenner in each week, and they take it turns on betting....

2 of them put the £30 on, say Barca at home, Utd at Home, and Chelsea at home - had a few wins over the season.

the other puts his on like 20 game accumulators, with completley random results...........never come close to any...........he is getting binned out the group at the end of the season

[Craig_H]

bizarrely i know what you mean as a few mates where talking about something similar the other day at the game......there is 3 of them in a group, each put a tenner in each week, and they take it turns on betting....

2 of them put the £30 on, say Barca at home, Utd at Home, and Chelsea at home - had a few wins over the season.

the other puts his on like 20 game accumulators, with completley random results...........never come close to any...........he is getting binned out the group at the end of the season

Makes sense

[BillobShaisley]

Gerrard is fast loosing my respect. He'd done **** all but moan all season, if he'd concentrate on playing instead of sulking we'd have 4th in the bag already. Wouldn't be surprised or that upset to see him swapped for a different big name in the sumer.

If not, he should lose the armband, Carragher is the obvious choice for LFC captain, he actually cares more about LFC than himself unlike Mr OCD.