Benítez says he needs fresh investment to compete for title

[Craig_H]

Do you guys seriously think either United or Arsenal would be looking at a 7th place finish if they'd missed Rooney or Fabregas for 16 league games?

For the record, Rooney's played just 7 more league games than Torres, and Fabregas just 5 more. Torres has played 22 PL games this campaign, Fabregas 27 and Rooney 29.

That accounts for a points gap of 25 and 27 points between us and United/Arsenal, does it?

Can someone explain how that's possible, when the maximum points Rooney could've earnt the mancs from those 7 extra games is 21, and the most Fabregas could've earnt Arsenal from those 5 extra games is 15?

Doesnt quite seem to add up.

[Craig_H]

I can only imagine how much you would hate people making a similar argument against you.

I think most people before the season would have called Fabregas as Arsenals most important player. Not to say that RvP in unimportant, merely less key that Fabregas. I'd agree that RvP is/was an important player for them but it's not as if they haven't been used to playing without him in recent seasons. I'd wager that over his Arsenal career he has averaged playing less than half their league games.

How much would you like this wager to be worth?

[Lecter]

Van Persie and Arsenal? They've played much of the season with JUST bendnter as their striker, and they're still in with a shot of winning it.

Your argument just doesnt stack up there. What if Rafa had bought a quality striker instead of AA and played Gerrard CM? We've suffered when Nando's been out, largely because rafa CHOSE to put Aquilani before a striker. You'll say that he was expecting more money, which may be true, but the bigger priority is always the one you should address first. He didnt.

But anyway, Torres didnt play all the time last year, and we nearly won it.

The drop in our level this year is vastly disproportionate to the the amount by which the squad has been weakened. Vastly.

I'm not putting ALL our failings on rafa, you're not putting ANY of them on him (despite your attempts to say otherwise). You'll whisper the words 'blame' and 'rafa' and then shout with volume about money and the owners.

Arsenal have also played Arshavin upfront for an awful lot of games it hasnt just been Bendtner

Aquilani I dont think has been a good signing BUT to me Gerrard is far more effective playing just off Torres. When he plays central midfield his impact is lessened imo. He has a tendency to switch off and let players in behind him and he also vacates the midfield position far too often and far too readily.

I'd guess that Torres & Gerrard both played more games last season than this

You keep saying that I dont put any failings on Rafa but that is the usual ****ing horse**** you come up with. I have already proved in a previous thread (to which you acknowledged) that I have issues with Rafa over certain things (signings of Johnson, Aquilani and even tactically) I just dont have as many issues as you do who clearly peddles an agenda in every thread you can. Some of the arguments you have put forward today have been hilarious, hysterical and fanciful to say the least

[5europeancups]

What a refreshing interview, I wish he would be more open a little more often. Everyone knows he has had to wheel and deal and everyone knows we need investment but it's nice the see the Rafa and Torres laying it on the line

My own perspective is that he is hiding behind boardroom shenanagins and he has actually failed as a manager.

His only successes to date have been with an inherited team and there have been no signs of progression year on year that one would expect with minimal investment.

He inherited a top four side that over achieved with the chamos league and despite signing a great goalie, striker and midfielder he has failed to create a team that can challenge.

You cant take the plaudits one year for a relative successful season finishing second and then not expect to take the blame for finishing poorly the season afterwards.

After all

What is a good manager about?

Spending money or managing teams??

Rafa has failed at Liverpool and should be replaced. He is not a civil servant ...

[dww]

Do you guys seriously think either United or Arsenal would be looking at a 7th place finish if they'd missed Rooney or Fabregas for 16 league games?

For the record, Rooney's played just 7 more league games than Torres, and Fabregas just 5 more. Torres has played 22 PL games this campaign, Fabregas 27 and Rooney 29.

That accounts for a points gap of 25 and 27 points between us and United/Arsenal, does it?

Can someone explain how that's possible, when the maximum points Rooney could've earnt the mancs from those 7 extra games is 21, and the most Fabregas could've earnt Arsenal from those 5 extra games is 15?

Doesnt quite seem to add up.

Honestly with the addition of the problem that we lacked confidence when he wasn't playing I think it goes a long way. It is a combined thing - we lost key components in the squad and then couldn't consistently put together our first choice team to get confidence.

Combined with Gerrard's woeful form which has often appeared fitness related I think it would make a huge difference.

I think United would probably have the strength in depth and of character to keep a top four position without Rooney but precious seasons have seen Arsenal flirt with falling out of the top 4 any way and City and Spurs are comparatively strong this year compared to other seasons.

The comparison to United is in my opinion an unfair one as they have a squad that has been built over a long period of time and has experience of winning the league. There was no way that Rafa could have bought that in even if he had wanted to.

[Lecter]

Do you guys seriously think either United or Arsenal would be looking at a 7th place finish if they'd missed Rooney or Fabregas for 16 league games?

For the record, Rooney's played just 7 more league games than Torres, and Fabregas just 5 more. Torres has played 22 PL games this campaign, Fabregas 27 and Rooney 29.

That accounts for a points gap of 25 and 27 points between us and United/Arsenal, does it?

Can someone explain how that's possible, when the maximum points Rooney could've earnt the mancs from those 7 extra games is 21, and the most Fabregas could've earnt Arsenal from those 5 extra games is 15?

Doesnt quite seem to add up.

Gerrard has also been injured far more this season than last and bearing in mind that hes usually our 2nd highest scorer you have to take that into account also

I've said before Rafa has made mistakes the signing of Johnson definitely, and Aquilani but not for the reasons you state. I would have signed a midfielder (just not Aquilani)

I think Gerrards far more effective off Torres

[Craig_H]

Arsenal have also played Arshavin upfront for an awful lot of games it hasnt just been Bendtner

Aquilani I dont think has been a good signing BUT to me Gerrard is far more effective playing just off Torres. When he plays central midfield his impact is lessened imo. He has a tendency to switch off and let players in behind him and he also vacates the midfield position far too often and far too readily.

I'd guess that Torres & Gerrard both played more games last season than this

You keep saying that I dont put any failings on Rafa but that is the usual ****ing horse**** you come up with. I have already proved in a previous thread (to which you acknowledged) that I have issues with Rafa over certain things (signings of Johnson, Aquilani and even tactically) I just dont have as many issues as you do who clearly peddles an agenda in every thread you can. Some of the arguments you have put forward today have been hilarious, hysterical and fanciful to say the least

Do you honestly think i have an 'agenda'? You seriously think i have a personal issue with Rafa? That in itself, is the biggest horse**** you could've posted. Me thinking Rafa's not doing the best for LFC isnt 'an agenda', it's just my opinion, currently strongly supported by powerful evidence.

If you acknowledge that Rafa's made crucial mistakes, and that he takes some blame for our dreadful season, why would you happily sit by and want him to continue at the helm? You may believe that nobody else could do better (i think plenty of managers, not even top class ones, could guide us to beating Pompey, Wolves, Wigan et al, but that's another issue) but even if you think that's the case, you dont know it for sure. So why wouldnt you want to at least try something different, when the current option is clearly failing.

Maybe a new manager would do no better, we can only guess.

But wouldnt you like to at least try, with the knowledge that there is at least some chance that it might improve our fortunes? Personally, when i see something not working, i tend to prefer to try an alternative, even though i cant be certain of its success, because i'd like to think i tried every possibility, rather than just dismissing some which may or may not help, in favour of the continually failing one.


As for Gerrard playing off torres - yes i agree. But it's not been just playing off Torres, has it? When Gerrard plays off torres, yes it's good. And when it's Torres playing that lone striker role, it works.

Problem is, Gerrard doesnt play as well behind a lone striker that isnt Torres and we dont perform well with the lone striker system when the lone striker isnt torres - yet, when Torres is out, Rafa persists with both the lone striker system and with SG playing off that lone striker. Despite all signs seemingly telling us that it only really works with TORRES as the striker, and Gerrard playing off TORRES - not N'Gog, Kuyt or Babel.

[Craig_H]

Gerrard has also been injured far more this season than last and bearing in mind that hes usually our 2nd highest scorer you have to take that into account also

I've said before Rafa has made mistakes the signing of Johnson definitely, and Aquilani but not for the reasons you state. I would have signed a midfielder (just not Aquilani)

I think Gerrards far more effective off Torres

For Torres and Gerrard, Arsenal have Fabregas and Van Persie. Our pair have managed 22 and 29 league games respectively this season. Their pair have managed 27 and 11 league games respectively this season.

Yet, they are title contenders and we are destined for 7th.

You can throw Arshavin into the mix for them, which is a fair point. 9 goals from 28 league games. Likewise, i'd bring up Kuyt for us - 9 goals from 33 league games.

[BobTheCharmer]

CRAIG - FFS you need to read more, wait a while and then post. Otherwise you get threads where you're replying to people and before they've responded you've picked out another of their posts to reply to and the whole thread is you replying but kinda out of sync.

Do you get me? If not it makes sense in my head.

[Craig_H]

I do get you But i just reply as i get to the individual posts.

[BobTheCharmer]

I do get you But i just reply as i get to the individual posts.

But how do you know whether the point has already been made prior to you posting? Ah you don't..........

All I know with 100% conviction is that there is one poster on this site that is a cunt who'd argue Frank Bruno was good at boxing, white and not mental in any way just for the sake of it. It's not you.

[Vermilion]

I still dont get what you are trying to prove

You criticise the manager for being defensive, he coaches a team that scored the most goals last season yet you bring up us not scoring in 5 games

WTF!!!

So what we only lost 2 games last season (this season we've lost 10), Chelsea have lost 5, we conceeded 27 goals last year (33 so far this)

It could be argued that this season our biggest failings have been, not being as tight at the back as previous years

You see how easy it is to manipulate statistics to mean whatever the **** you want??

[Lecter]

Do you honestly think i have an 'agenda'? You seriously think i have a personal issue with Rafa? That in itself, is the biggest horse**** you could've posted. Me thinking Rafa's not doing the best for LFC isnt 'an agenda', it's just my opinion, currently strongly supported by powerful evidence.

If you acknowledge that Rafa's made crucial mistakes, and that he takes some blame for our dreadful season, why would you happily sit by and want him to continue at the helm? You may believe that nobody else could do better (i think plenty of managers, not even top class ones, could guide us to beating Pompey, Wolves, Wigan et al, but that's another issue) but even if you think that's the case, you dont know it for sure. So why wouldnt you want to at least try something different, when the current option is clearly failing.

Maybe a new manager would do no better, we can only guess.

But wouldnt you like to at least try, with the knowledge that there is at least some chance that it might improve our fortunes? Personally, when i see something not working, i tend to prefer to try an alternative, even though i cant be certain of its success, because i'd like to think i tried every possibility, rather than just dismissing some which may or may not help, in favour of the continually failing one.


As for Gerrard playing off torres - yes i agree. But it's not been just playing off Torres, has it? When Gerrard plays off torres, yes it's good. And when it's Torres playing that lone striker role, it works.

Problem is, Gerrard doesnt play as well behind a lone striker that isnt Torres and we dont perform well with the lone striker system when the lone striker isnt torres - yet, when Torres is out, Rafa persists with both the lone striker system and with SG playing off that lone striker. Despite all signs seemingly telling us that it only really works with TORRES as the striker, and Gerrard playing off TORRES - not N'Gog, Kuyt or Babel.

IF the current owners are remaining then I would replace Rafa but I do fear that any manager coming in will do no better under the current climate / situation at our club

If we get new owners I'd like Rafa to be given a season with full backing just to see what he is or isnt capable of

I still think Rafa hasnt had a good swing of things from either board / owners hes managed under. Hes always had to wheel and deal and most of that time hes had to settle for players lower down his wish list

You only have to go back to earlier this season when we got stuffed by Fiorentina and Rafa talked about having an interest in Jovetic? (the little lad who scored against us) but he'd had his funds cut so had to re-evaluate things. Again going back to Aquilani if you remember Rafa talked about having more money to spend around that time but a couple of days later he was talking about having only a couple of million left for a centrehalf

I honestly believe the goalposts were moved on him and I do wonder how many other managers would have accepted that nevermind coped with it

[Lecter]

But how do you know whether the point has already been made prior to you posting? Ah you don't..........

All I know with 100% conviction is that there is one poster on this site that is a cunt who'd argue Frank Bruno was good at boxing, white and not mental in any way just for the sake of it. It's not you.

I'll admit to being a cunt but Bruno was ****ing useless

He should have stuck to panto

[Vermilion]

I'll admit to being a cunt but Bruno was ****ing useless

He should have stuck to panto

I thought BTC was on about someone else...i won't name who i thought of though.

So Barclays eh...what next ?