Roy Hodgson's footballing philosophy

[Mostar]

I think the stats very much go against you in terms of Kuyt, he does an excellent job for us.

Babel hasn't got the intelligence nor the work rate, the only thing he has over Kuyt is pace.

Interesting that you mentioned the stats.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com

Kuyt played last year 48 games scoring 10 goals and 3 assists.

Babel played 31 games scoring 6 goals and 2 assists.

What is really interesting is that Babel started 13 games and Kuyt 46 games.

According to those stats it would appear that Babel had a better season, which to me is clearly not the case.

My point is that stats will not tell the real story of every player's performance.

[Mattshark]

Interesting that you mentioned the stats.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/

Kuyt played last year 48 games scoring 10 goals and 3 assists.

Babel played 31 games scoring 6 goals and 2 assists.

What is really interesting is that Babel started 13 games and Kuyt 46 games.

According to those stats it would appear that Babel had a better season, which to me is clearly not the case.

My point is that stats will not tell the real story of every player's performance.

Look at the season before too, last season was more anomalous, Kuyt provides a good outlet for cross and he does the simple things very well.
Kuyt creates plenty for the team. In 08/09 Kuyt had 10 assists.

Babel, however, only ever seems to be effective when brought on as a sub against tiring defences, as a starter he has little to no impact.

[Mostar]

Look at the season before too, last season was more anomalous, Kuyt provides a good outlet for cross and he does the simple things very well.
Kuyt creates plenty for the team. In 08/09 Kuyt had 10 assists.

Babel, however, only ever seems to be effective when brought on as a sub against tiring defences, as a starter he has little to no impact.

Yes but he also played 46 games as a starter while Babel only started 13 games.

My point is even though Babel's lack of working ethic is clearly an issue I am not sure that we can really rate his effectiveness as a sub only when his not given too many chances to be in starting 11.

On the other hand, Kuyt had a fair share of playing time and imo we can and should do better in that position.

[Mattshark]

Yes but he also played 46 games as a starter while Babel only started 13 games.

My point is even though Babel's lack of working ethic is clearly an issue I am not sure that we can really rate his effectiveness as a sub only when his not given too many chances to be in starting 11.

On the other hand, Kuyt had a fair share of playing time and imo we can and should do better in that position.

The problem is that when Babel does start, he doesn't do anything, that is why he is so rarely started. We know Babel has a good shot on him, but when he starts games he so often seems lost.
Kuyts record is good for anyone playing RM in the league, as said in 08/09 he was the second highest scoring winger behind Ronaldo and was got the most assists in that position. Who exactly could we get to do that without spending a fortune we don't have exactly?

[Mostar]

The problem is that when Babel does start, he doesn't do anything, that is why he is so rarely started. We know Babel has a good shot on him, but when he starts games he so often seems lost.
Kuyts record is good for anyone playing RM in the league, as said in 08/09 he was the second highest scoring winger behind Ronaldo and was got the most assists in that position. Who exactly could we get to do that without spending a fortune we don't have exactly?

Fair point but if we can sell some squad players we could be in position to improve there as well.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate Kuyt's commitment and perseverance (he is one of few that work their socks off every single game) but to me he should be coming from the bench.

[Spanishfly]

I hope we keep onto Reira and use him well. The season we finished 2nd he was great for us sticking out wide on the wing and using the full width of the pitch meaning more space for the central midfielders.

[RichC]

Not sure Reira will be good for the dressing room - if we can get a decent sum for him let him go - showed last season he's all about himself!

[el matador]

Interesting that you mentioned the stats.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com

Kuyt played last year 48 games scoring 10 goals and 3 assists.

Babel played 31 games scoring 6 goals and 2 assists.

What is really interesting is that Babel started 13 games and Kuyt 46 games.

According to those stats it would appear that Babel had a better season, which to me is clearly not the case.

My point is that stats will not tell the real story of every player's performance.

but matt it also might suggest that if babel had been given more of a chance we might have done slightly better.

[Armchairkopite]

Kuyt was very poor last season but so was the whole team bar one or two hence the departure of Rafa.

Kuyt can and will be an integral part of our team if Hodgson decides to keep him and if he doesn't there will be no shortage of suitors for the commited Kuyt.

[red g]

Kuyt was very poor last season but so was the whole team bar one or two hence the departure of Rafa.

Kuyt can and will be an integral part of our team if Hodgson decides to keep him and if he doesn't there will be no shortage of suitors for the commited Kuyt.

hope he is integral part of the swuad maybe not first 11

[dww]

Yes but he also played 46 games as a starter while Babel only started 13 games.

My point is even though Babel's lack of working ethic is clearly an issue I am not sure that we can really rate his effectiveness as a sub only when his not given too many chances to be in starting 11.

On the other hand, Kuyt had a fair share of playing time and imo we can and should do better in that position.

The problem is that when Babel does start, he doesn't do anything, that is why he is so rarely started. We know Babel has a good shot on him, but when he starts games he so often seems lost.
Kuyts record is good for anyone playing RM in the league, as said in 08/09 he was the second highest scoring winger behind Ronaldo and was got the most assists in that position. Who exactly could we get to do that without spending a fortune we don't have exactly?

but matt it also might suggest that if babel had been given more of a chance we might have done slightly better.

Interesting points.

I tend to be with Matt. Babel's stats are in my view artificially high - he played mostly against poorer opposition and came on as an impact sub - the last 10 minutes is the time with the highest probability of gaols being scored I believe. Kuyt stil lhad better assist to minute ratio despite not coming on against tired defences and against poorer teams and his goalscoring record was still decent.

I can see the counter arguments but it was only towards the end of the season that Babel started playing in a way that justified any faith in him. Kuyt has consistently done the same things fairly well season after season - Babel arguable just had a brief run of form.

[The_weatherman]

People assume it because it has been the basic formation that Hodgson has always used. That said though he often employed the likes of Dempsey in attack at Fulham which made it a more flexible formation. I agree with the idea that having a second nominal striker doesn't necessarily mean a formation in which both operate high up the pitch.

I'm not sure that the tactics of the team are mostly determined by the 3 or 4 numbers used to represent their formations.

Hodgson says himself that he like to play players in their preferred position, and considering our personel I'd assume we'll be playing 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3- of sorts instead, given we only have one good goalscorer and Maxi, Riera, Babel, Kuyt and Gerrard fit well in those tactics.

[cream]

Hodgson says himself that he like to play players in their preferred position, and considering our personel I'd assume we'll be playing 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3- of sorts instead, given we only have one good goalscorer and Maxi, Riera, Babel, Kuyt and Gerrard fit well in those tactics.

Those players are a better fit in a 4-4-2, the player that doesn't fit into a 4-4-2 system is Torres therefore we should stick to our current system and buy better wide players, otherwise sell Torres and buy two good strikers.

[Zapater]

The thing with Babel is, regardless of how badly, or averagely he plays he does have a lot of pace and fast players are all going to trouble defenders. It's something that our attack lacks badly when Torres is out and lacks on the flanks even if he is playing. I'd even say that Torres overall speed isn't that great, it's more his acceleration over 5-10 meters which is incredible.

So unless we replace him adequately with a competent AND FAST player, I'd be reluctant to letting him leave just because it's a different option regardless of how poor many of his performances have been. If you look at a handful of his games, like West Ham last season (where he assisted a Torres header) he won it for us practically just because of the injection of raw pace. I don't particularly fancy him as a winger in a 4-4-2, although if we're playing a genuine workhorse of a 2 way player on the other flank i.e. Kuyt it wouldn't be bad seeing him getting some minutes although it wouldn't be my preference.

But by the fact Roy allowed Benayoun to move, must show that he is willing to give Babel a go or he's got a replacement in mind pretty much lined up, if he plans to get rid of Babel as well as Riera presumably, I can see us looking worryingly thin for quality in depth.

My main problem with Riera playing is that he outrightly had a really bad go at Rafa and said that the team was a sinking ship, I just hate to think of that kind of a personality playing for us, I'm all for second chances but that's just a ****ish thing to do especially when the team is struggling. From a playing point of view barring his lack of form last season I don't really have a problem with him. He has shown he can be a class player at times, I thought he had a superb Confed Cup with Spain last year. Unless Roy gets him playing well and with enthusiasm, I think it's in everyone's best interests if he leaves, given that there's a reasonable offer for him.

[Fierce]

The thing with Babel is, regardless of how badly, or averagely he plays he does have a lot of pace and fast players are all going to trouble defenders. It's something that our attack lacks badly when Torres is out and lacks on the flanks even if he is playing. I'd even say that Torres overall speed isn't that great, it's more his acceleration over 5-10 meters which is incredible.

So unless we replace him adequately with a competent AND FAST player, I'd be reluctant to letting him leave just because it's a different option regardless of how poor many of his performances have been. If you look at a handful of his games, like West Ham last season (where he assisted a Torres header) he won it for us practically just because of the injection of raw pace. I don't particularly fancy him as a winger in a 4-4-2, although if we're playing a genuine workhorse of a 2 way player on the other flank i.e. Kuyt it wouldn't be bad seeing him getting some minutes although it wouldn't be my preference.

Jovanovic? Not that I think Babel should've been played on the left personally, but seems to me that Jovanovic is exactly what Rafa tried to get Babel to be