Liverpoool v Man City Post Match thread

[PTP]

Sky's pre-match coverage sunk to whole new levels of awfulness, it was utter drivel.

The lowlight being the god awful astroturf "pitch".

haha i saw that and was thinking really.....wtf haha - jeez, i had a go at this whole monday night football sky love in last week after the first game (was it the mancs and newcastle) but this was just unreal....really wtf - who's ****ing daft idea was it to to have that little square patch of astro......mark it out with white lines , then have gray teach us all, but more importantly teach his little brother keys.. about differences in attacking/marking people - oh ****ing dear.....yes we all have our understandings and different levels of football knowledge, and we will all agree or disagree with various pundits......but richard ****ing keys, asking these questions to gray like a ****ing pube, oh my - that was embarrasing if it had be a soccer skills show and had an expert showing a 5 yr old, - never mind to grown old men - it's richard keys i hate the most - at least other pundits seemed to have either played the game or have some general understanding, keys is just a ****.

[Rich]

haha i saw that and was thinking really.....wtf haha - jeez, i had a go at this whole monday night football sky love in last week after the first game (was it the mancs and newcastle) but this was just unreal....really wtf - who's ****ing daft idea was it to to have that little square patch of astro......mark it out with white lines , then have gray teach us all, but more importantly teach his little brother keys.. about differences in attacking/marking people - oh ****ing dear.....yes we all have our understandings and different levels of football knowledge, and we will all agree or disagree with various pundits......but richard ****ing keys, asking these questions to gray like a ****ing pube, oh my - that was embarrasing if it had be a soccer skills show and had an expert showing a 5 yr old, - never mind to grown old men - it's richard keys i hate the most - at least other pundits seemed to have either played the game or have some general understanding, keys is just a ****.

There was a time when I thought Richard Keys was a harmless presenter but with every season he becomes more poisonous and opinionated. However his lack of understanding is staggering!

[BG1973]

Spurs dominated City by playing 4-4-2. Granted they played at home, but the ball is still round and the goals are the same size.

Difference? They have more quality in their team.

This.


Same team different manager.

No difference.

[dww]

This.


Same team different manager.

No difference.

I think there is also a big difference in that sense that Ngog and Torres don't make sense as a partnership and Crouch and Defoe do. Also they played with natural width to service Crouch - arguably making it a very different system. Perhaps just criticising it as a 4-4-2 is overly reductive but our tactics were different and unsuitable both to counter the opposition formation and to get the best out of our players.

[Craig_H]

So if he finish 7th or lower again this season what will you put it down to

1) poor management / tactics
2) ****e performances
3) finding our new level

Well it depends how the manager utilises the team and tactics, and how we play. It's impossible to put it down to something before it's happened.

[Bender]

Ngog does look clueless at times

[Lecter]

I think there is also a big difference in that sense that Ngog and Torres don't make sense as a partnership and Crouch and Defoe do. Also they played with natural width to service Crouch - arguably making it a very different system. Perhaps just criticising it as a 4-4-2 is overly reductive but our tactics were different and unsuitable both to counter the opposition formation and to get the best out of our players.

Difference between us and Spurs is simple

We dont have the players to play 4-4-2 they do

Which begs the question why is our manager trying to play that system with zero wingers

[Fierce]

Sky's pre-match coverage sunk to whole new levels of awfulness, it was utter drivel.

The lowlight being the god awful astroturf "pitch".

That was ****ing genius!! I don't think I've ever seen Richard Keys look more uncomfortable, absolutely hilarious mates

[Assassin]

I am still devastated by our performance last night. Plus having to see there new owner Sheihk "Mr Bean" Mansour's sickly grin last night and today was just too much

Another thing, Eddie Munster can go **** himself, ****ing ****bag. The ****ing sooner we get rid of the ****ing little **** to Barca the ****ing better

[The Birdman]

I hate Sky because they peddle lies and talk absolute ****e.
At one point during the 2nd half Alan Smith is droning on about how this could be 5 or 6 and how Man City have outclassed us and while he was saying that with a straight face the stats came up in the bottom corner saying we had more shots at goal and more shots on target whereas City had 3 efforts on target and 3 goals.

I hate them because Andy Gray was never any good and he **** out of a career in management to front Skys coverage and considers himself an expert.
It must be 25 years since he played top flight English football yet he stills goes on about 'his day' and all that crap.



Edit: This is all before I start on rotation and zonal marking.
I don't mind if the coverage is biaised but for the love of god try and tell the truth

[JohnDoe]

Lennon and Bale are better than Kuyt and Jovanovic regardless of the system.

Stick them out wide in a 4-3-3 with one striker and they'll still be better. Why? Because they're better, it's as simple as that. Football is being over analyzed, there's not a lot of difference between a wide player in a 4-4-2 and a 4-3-3, he's just more obligated to come into the box when the striker drifts wide in a 4-3-3, and he has more defensive responsibilities in a 4-4-2 because there's no extra man in the middle to cover for him. That difference can be rectified with instructions alone.

But in both systems, he needs to be able to produce goal scoring chances from the same positions. Lennon/Bale are more capable of that than Kuyt/Jova, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why (pace, dribbling, delivery, mentality), they're better players.

[Lecter]

Lennon and Bale are better than Kuyt and Jovanovic regardless of the system.

Stick them out wide in a 4-3-3 with one striker and they'll still be better. Why? Because they're better, it's as simple as that. Football is being over analyzed, there's not a lot of difference between a wide player in a 4-4-2 and a 4-3-3, he's just more obligated to come into the box when the striker drifts wide in a 4-3-3, and he has more defensive responsibilities in a 4-4-2 because there's no extra man in the middle to cover for him. That difference can be rectified with instructions alone.

But in both systems, he needs to be able to produce goal scoring chances from the same positions. Lennon/Bale are more capable of that than Kuyt/Jova, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why (pace, dribbling, delivery, mentality), they're better players.

In a 4-4-2 the onus is also on the wide players to provide an element of width

Something both Kuyt and Jovanovic rarely if ever do as they always come inside

[Craig_H]

In a 442, the wide players start deeper, so there's more onus on them to beat a man and get beyond him, into a dangerous area.

In a 4231, they're further advanced up the park and there's less of a need to beat the fullback/opposition wide midfielder.

Given that Kuyt and Jova lack the pace, directness and trickery to beat a man, this makes their job much harder in a 442. Likewise, there's more onus to get wide and help us stretch the game - and neither of them are great at that.

[Rich]

Absolutely! 442 and 4231 are very different. Some players can play out wide in the 442 and the wide forward roles in 4231, just so happens neither Jova nor Kuyt can do the 442!

[JohnDoe]

In a 4-4-2 the onus is also on the wide players to provide an element of width

Something both Kuyt and Jovanovic rarely if ever do as they always come inside

Wide players in a 4-3-3 need to provide width as well. They can't always come inside, they still need to be able to do things wingers do. Wide players who can't provide danger out wide, and solely rely on on other niches in their game, are not good wide players.

In a 442, the wide players start deeper, so there's more onus on them to beat a man and get beyond him, into a dangerous area.

A wide man who can't beat a man, is a liability. They're still getting marked by their full back, so unless they have incredible off the ball movement which allows them to get beyond their marker, they won't be effective.

In a 4231, they're further advanced up the park and there's less of a need to beat the fullback/opposition wide midfielder.

The full back is still assigned to the same player, and they're not really more advanced when we have the ball, they're just more obligated to come inside when the striker drifts.

They still need to be able to beat their man, any attacking player has to be able to find a way to beat his man. Whether by pace, strength, aerial ability, movement... A player who is incapable of avoiding his marker is a liability offensively, as the defence will direct their attention to more dangerous players in order to nullify them without getting punished.

Given that Kuyt and Jova lack the pace, directness and trickery to beat a man, this makes their job much harder in a 442. Likewise, there's more onus to get wide and help us stretch the game - and neither of them are great at that.

Kuyt and Jovanovic is a terrible wide pairing in any formation because they rarely create goals. It's as simple as that. Put them in a 4-2-3-1, with Gerrard behind Torres, and it'll still be very very bad. You could argue that it gets better offensive output from Gerrard, but that won't happen because Kuyt/Jova are more "suited" to that role.