Liverpoool v Man City Post Match thread

[Dalglish]

I don't for a second believe that we couldn't have played different tactics. For a start if we are going to play a 4-4-2 it makes a lot more sense to put Kuyt as the second striker. I'm sure we could have played Maxi on the right. We had plenty of players capable of making us transition to a simple variation of 4-2-3-1 accounting for the loss of Mascherno and Cole.

I accept that given that we don't have great strength in midfield if Poulsen isn't fully fit then Gerrard in CM might have been necessary but a 3 line formation with two tactically similar forwards, no creative lynch pin or natural width was not.

When Roy moved away from his default 4-4-2 with "inside out" wingers at Fulham he often struggled. His lack of flexibility and reliance on set, drilled manoeuvres seems to me to be a considerable problem now he has made the step up to a team expected to win most games. I hope that he imposes at least his plan A on the squad soon and that I'm proved wrong but at the minute he looks a bit out of his depth.

Excellently put. For whatever record there is I have never seen the sense in this appointment as I dont think Hodgson is up to the job of managing us. I obviously hoped to be proved wrong as the season began but I only see things that concern me.

The worst thing about last night was the spectacular naivety of the tactics. That was truly worrying.

[Lecter]

I don't for a second believe that we couldn't have played different tactics. For a start if we are going to play a 4-4-2 it makes a lot more sense to put Kuyt as the second striker. I'm sure we could have played Maxi on the right. We had plenty of players capable of making us transition to a simple variation of 4-2-3-1 accounting for the loss of Mascherno and Cole.

I accept that given that we don't have great strength in midfield, if Poulsen isn't fully fit, then Gerrard in CM might have been necessary but a 3 line formation with two tactically similar forwards, no creative lynch pin or natural width was not.

When Roy moved away from his default 4-4-2 with "inside out" wingers at Fulham he often struggled. His lack of flexibility and reliance on set, drilled manoeuvres seems to me to be a considerable problem now he has made the step up to a team expected to win most games. I hope that he imposes at least his plan A on the squad soon and that I'm proved wrong but at the minute he looks a bit out of his depth.

I dont get this about choreographing moves

Fine defensive drills can be choreographed to a certain extent, however part of being a good attacking force is doing something out of the ordinairy to create a chance / goal etc..

Having pre-disposed moves is only going to make it easier for opposition coaches who will look at those moves in games and set drills to cope with them

[Lecter]

And one who went within 4 points of the title the season before.

7th wasnt a true reflection, it was just a consequence of ****e performances.

So if he finish 7th or lower again this season what will you put it down to

1) poor management / tactics
2) ****e performances
3) finding our new level

[dww]

I dont get this about choreographing moves

Fine defensive drills can be choreographed to a certain extent, however part of being a good attacking force is doing something out of the ordinairy to create a chance / goal etc..

Having pre-disposed moves is only going to make it easier for opposition coaches who will look at those moves in games and set drills to cope with them

I think it can work well on the break, or possibly in slower leagues if you have pacey players. Essentially I think it is well suited to teams that don't have the ball all that much or when they do have it deep. As a team looking to dominate and win I agree with your analysis - it should certainly be a small part of our armoury.

I'm not sure that it is the only, or even main thing, Roy wants but they seem to be the platform around which he built his Fulham team and we have shown signs of using similar patterns (at least in the UEFA games). I do think having a definite shape and set things to look for does have something going for it if you use it as a framework you improvise around. I worry that if you don't even have the set moves down though that it leaves people looking for options that aren't there.

[DannyMan2006]

So if he finish 7th or lower again this season what will you put it down to

1) poor management / tactics
2) ****e performances
3) finding our new level

It would likely be a combination of the first two leading to number 3.

[Lecter]

It would likely be a combination of the first two leading to number 3.

[Lecter]

I think it can work well on the break, or possibly in slower leagues if you have pacey players. Essentially I think it is well suited to teams that don't have the ball all that much or when they do have it deep. As a team looking to dominate and win I agree with your analysis - it should certainly be a small part of our armoury.

I'm not sure that it is the only, or even main thing, Roy wants but they seem to be the platform around which he built his Fulham team and we have shown signs of using similar patterns (at least in the UEFA games). I do think having a definite shape and set things to look for does have something going for it if you use it as a framework you improvise around. I worry that if you don't even have the set moves down though that it leaves people looking for options that aren't there.

We had no shape though yesterday none at all either in possession or out of it

That is one thing you could never level at Benitez he knew how to set a team up so that it had shape

Above all else I looked at that side last night and the first thing that worried me was that it met with Andy Gray's approval

Whilst Mancini's selection was mildly accused of being "negative" although by half time they had changed their tune on that

[Scratch]

Not been bothered to read the whole of this thread, cos i can well imagine the way it's gone...i have no issue with the starting line up or the formation played, however it soon became apparent that this formation was allowing City the freedom of the midfield, so why couldn't Roy see it? We could have easily switched to a 4-5-1 formation by putting N'Gog on the wing and pushing Jova infield more to combat the space that City were getting. That's my gripe, sticking with 4-4-2 when it just weren't working.

Still, beat WBA and Birmingham, and play better footy against United, and i'll be a happy fella again.

[dww]

We had no shape though yesterday none at all either in possession or out of it

That is one thing you could never level at Benitez he knew how to set a team up so that it had shape

Above all else I looked at that side last night and the first thing that worried me was that it met with Andy Gray's approval

Whilst Mancini's selection was mildly accused of being "negative" although by half time they had changed their tune on that

I totally agree with that. In fact before the game I said to Parm it was the sort of team set up we would be lucky to get a draw with. We've lacked a convincing pattern of play all season. The defence that seems reasonable to me is that it takes time to build up these moves and for players to understand the system.

[Buzzo]

We had no shape though yesterday none at all either in possession or out of it

That is one thing you could never level at Benitez he knew how to set a team up so that it had shape

Above all else I looked at that side last night and the first thing that worried me was that it met with Andy Gray's approval

Whilst Mancini's selection was mildly accused of being "negative" although by half time they had changed their tune on that

So true.

They were loving post-Benitez Liverpool way too much. Almost every tactical point that Gray made regarding both teams was 100% wrong.

I am not too keen on Roy being all hugs and kisses with the opposition managers pre game either (Wenger and Mancini now) it sends out the wrong message. I much preferred Rafa's me against the world approach. Being nice to the oppo may be all well and good at Fulham but it is warfare now Roy old boy. Save the back slapping for after we have ****ed them 4 nil. I think Roy has some ability but he is operating at a new level now and he has no friends in the opposition any more.

[Lecter]

So true.

They were loving post-Benitez Liverpool way too much. Almost every tactical point that Gray made regarding both teams was 100% wrong.
.

Sky as a whole looked ****ing hypocritical idiots last night. More so than previously

Manager picks 4-4-2 and gets an arse raping but hats off and applause all round the Sky studio for good old Roy

Mancini picks an ultra defensive 4-3-3 system and wins 3-0

Man-to-man marking system we are now employing shows its frailties, which was pretty much brushed over

Manager refuses to make any changes to his system / side until the 78th minute when we are used to Sky's constant sniping about how Rafa never made a change until the 65th minute

Sky are a ****ing joke they are a parody of what a real sports programme should be

[Lecter]

I totally agree with that. In fact before the game I said to Parm it was the sort of team set up we would be lucky to get a draw with. We've lacked a convincing pattern of play all season. The defence that seems reasonable to me is that it takes time to build up these moves and for players to understand the system.

I have a few fundamental issues with yesterday but maybe Roy has some mitigating circumstances (Mascherano ****ing around, players getting use to formation etc..)

However there was also some stuff that is / was just plain ****ing wrong in my book

But hey I'll sit back and watch how things unfold from here on in but frankly I'll be amazed if things are any different after 15-20 games

[Rich]

Why is there still liverpoool in the title?

[Buzzo]

I have a few fundamental issues with yesterday but maybe Roy has some mitigating circumstances (Mascherano ****ing around, players getting use to formation etc..)

However there was also some stuff that is / was just plain ****ing wrong in my book

But hey I'll sit back and watch how things unfold from here on in but frankly I'll be amazed if things are any different after 15-20 games

The jury is totally out with Roy for me. I haven't been either impressed or unimpressed at all as yet. Last night was a worry though. In big games with our squad we have to play 4231. It is not a defensive system at all, but it offers more fluidity (possibilities) and can cope well under pressure and when on the attack. I am sure the Mascherano situation didn't help in any way, but the next big test for Roy is taking the team to Old Trafford in 2-3 weeks to see if we can beat his buddy Sir Alex. Approach the game in the same way as last night and we will get ripped apart again.

It has been good to not read too many people laying blame with last night at Lucas's door (usual suspects aside). Neither a fan nor detractor off him myself, but the kid got thrown into the game last minute having presumably been told he was on the bench. He has problems to his game for sure, a lot off them down to confidence, but he never hides and there were bigger names to let us down last night than him. We need to nurture him much as Man U have Darren Fletcher and who knows we may make a player of him. But last night simply was not his fault.

[Scratch]

Meh...now we hate Sky for liking us and our manager, whereas before we hated them for hating us and our manager. I think i prefer the former tho, less doom and gloom to get into the players' heads!