Liverpoool v Man City Post Match thread

[elrichio86]

I would say that in a 4231 they aren't really wide positions anyway. More like inside-left and inside right. The actual width is meant to come from the fullbacks. The fullbacks hug the touchline, whilst the forward "wide-men" are more like in line with the edge of the box.

[Neil Young]

Wide players in a 4-3-3 need to provide width as well. They can't always come inside, they still need to be able to do things wingers do. Wide players who can't provide danger out wide, and solely rely on on other niches in their game, are not good wide players.



A wide man who can't beat a man, is a liability. They're still getting marked by their full back, so unless they have incredible off the ball movement which allows them to get beyond their marker, they won't be effective.



The full back is still assigned to the same player, and they're not really more advanced when we have the ball, they're just more obligated to come inside when the striker drifts.

They still need to be able to beat their man, any attacking player has to be able to find a way to beat his man. Whether by pace, strength, aerial ability, movement... A player who is incapable of avoiding his marker is a liability offensively, as the defence will direct their attention to more dangerous players in order to nullify them without getting punished.



Kuyt and Jovanovic is a terrible wide pairing in any formation because they rarely create goals. It's as simple as that. Put them in a 4-2-3-1, with Gerrard behind Torres, and it'll still be very very bad. You could argue that it gets better offensive output from Gerrard, but that won't happen because Kuyt/Jova are more "suited" to that role.

I was under the impression Kuyt's LFC stats for assists are pretty good.

I don't know about Jovanovic but since he's only been here five minutes I think you may be moulding the argument to fit a pre-existing point of view.

[JohnDoe]

I would say that in a 4231 they aren't really wide positions anyway. More like inside-left and inside right. The actual width is meant to come from the fullbacks. The fullbacks hug the touchline, whilst the forward "wide-men" are more like in line with the edge of the box.

The full back is more obligated to come forward and fill in the winger position when the wide man comes inside whatever the formation is, but he shouldn't be the initial threat from that position, as he reacts to the wide man's movement. He should still provide width in a 4-4-2 just as much as he does in a 4-3-3, he'll just do that more often in the latter.

Full backs generally suffer when they become the initial threat out wide, as they are more likely to be caught out of position and be singled out. Since they aren't as technically sound as attacking players (usually, by being defenders), they are far less dangerous when they don't surprise the opposition with their runs from deep. Glen Johnson is suffering from being the main threat on the right flank, a full back should always be the second wave.

[Craig_H]

They still need to be able to beat their man, any attacking player has to be able to find a way to beat his man. Whether by pace, strength, aerial ability, movement... A player who is incapable of avoiding his marker is a liability offensively, as the defence will direct their attention to more dangerous players in order to nullify them without getting punished.

Not really. If they're high up the park, they can play a dangerous ball or put in a cross, without beating their man, much more easily than if they're by the halfway line.

[JohnDoe]

I was under the impression Kuyt's LFC stats for assists are pretty good.

With Benayoun on the other flank, his productivity is excellent. Kuyt is a good worker to compliment your main attacking threats, he's not a threat in itself.

I don't know about Jovanovic but since he's only been here five minutes I think you may be moulding the argument to fit a pre-existing point of view.

I've seen enough from Jovanovic to see the type of player he is. He's not the type of player who can compliment Kuyt's game.

[Shaggy]

I was under the impression Kuyt's LFC stats for assists are pretty good.

I don't know about Jovanovic but since he's only been here five minutes I think you may be moulding the argument to fit a pre-existing point of view.

These are Dirk's Premier League stats:

06-07 12 goals/4 assists
07-08 3 goals/12 assists
08-09 12 goals/8 assists
09-10 9 goals/4 assists

[JohnDoe]

Not really. If they're high up the park, they can play a dangerous ball or put in a cross, without beating their man, much more easily than if they're by the halfway line.

So nobody's marking them if they're "high" up the pitch?

[Neil Young]

These are Dirk's Premier League stats:

06-07 12 goals/4 assists
07-08 3 goals/12 assists
08-09 12 goals/8 assists
09-10 9 goals/4 assists

OK, well, only two of those seasons count.

[Neil Young]

With Benayoun on the other flank, his productivity is excellent. Kuyt is a good worker to compliment your main attacking threats, he's not a threat in itself.



I've seen enough from Jovanovic to see the type of player he is. He's not the type of player who can compliment Kuyt's game.

When did Benayoun join? Was he with us one season or two?

[elrichio86]

The full back is more obligated to come forward and fill in the winger position when the wide man comes inside whatever the formation is, but he shouldn't be the initial threat from that position, as he reacts to the wide man's movement. He should still provide width in a 4-4-2 just as much as he does in a 4-3-3, he'll just do that more often in the latter.

Full backs generally suffer when they become the initial threat out wide, as they are more likely to be caught out of position and be singled out. Since they aren't as technically sound as attacking players (usually, by being defenders), they are far less dangerous when they don't surprise the opposition with their runs from deep. Glen Johnson is suffering from being the main threat on the right flank, a full back should always be the second wave.

I see what you're getting at. I think the theory is the ball is played to the "wide-man" first who draws the defending fullback towards him. This creates the space for the attacking fullback to overlap into the space. So yes, the fullback isn't the initial threat. At least that's how I understand it.

However this does rely on the ball getting to the "wide-man" in the first place, and that player then having the skill to get the ball the the overlapping fullback. Both of which we seem to have issues with at the moment.

[Shaggy]

OK, well, only two of those seasons count.

I think they're pretty good figures, especially when you factor in what else he brings to the side.

[Craig_H]

So nobody's marking them if they're "high" up the pitch?

Do you think you have to beat your marker in order to put in a cross?

[JohnDoe]

These are Dirk's Premier League stats:

06-07 12 goals/4 assists
07-08 3 goals/12 assists
08-09 12 goals/8 assists
09-10 9 goals/4 assists

In a lot of those games, especially in his first two seasons, he's played up front.

[Neil Young]

I think they're pretty good figures, especially when you factor in what else he brings to the side.

Those two seasons are outstanding though. I agree with you about Kuyt. I have always rated him.

[JohnDoe]

Do you think you have to beat your marker in order to put in a cross?

You have to find a way to deliver. You need to beat your man, the way you do it is irrelevant. Off the ball movement is a way to beat your man, it's not just dribbling and doing step overs, that's not what I mean.