Pack your bags Roy

[kris90210]

Setting up with 2 defensive midfielders doesnt mean he was going for a point. It just means he had different ideas to you, on the best method for trying to get the three points.

Scratch is right in what he says though Craig. In fact, I remember you making the same point a few times last season.

2 defensive midfielders at home to opposition we 'should' be beating was hugely contentious.

[pondus]

Of relevance to some of this discussion, does anybody recall a discussion a couple of years ago about the different tactical stages that the top managers try to achieve. I think it was Rinus Michels who came up with the idea, but it was also something Rafa believed in.

The final stage was the crushing machine style game of possession dominance, quick passing, free flowing attacking football similar to what Barca currently play (and LFC played at the end of 08-09 ). One of the earlier stages was based on defensive solidity and counter attacking. I think Michels was suggesting that this is something you resort ot against better teams when you are building up to the final stage.

Anyone remember this?

I read this yes, can't say I remember much of it, getting old

[Lecter]

I'm a Rafa fan, but that's really not true is it Arn. Cast your mind back to our champions league encounters with Chelsea.

We don't know really what style of football Roy is trying to impliment yet. I'm just pleased it's moved on from the 'getting ****ed by Northampton' style. Results have started to go our way. Let's see what happens now over the next few games mate

Well I think we can guess what style of football hes trying to impliment

He himself said hes been doing the same thing for 35 years and doesnt see the need to change

I think Rafa played for draws at times away from home not sure he did the same at home despite the two holding midfielders he played

Rafas game was more about controlling the opposition than actually playing for a specific result I suppose its the same philosophy as Paisley had win the battle, quieten the opposition, control the game, play your football, win the game

The only problem with Rafa was executing the final part for whatever reason

I dont think Roy shares those same ideals much like Houllier didnt

Its different tactics for different people but frankly I'm still non-plussed by Roy's maybe its me being greedy and wanting more

[Scratch]

You do talk a lot of crap. Two defensive midfielders don't mean to nullify the opposition. It could mean that it is the best way to control the game.

Xabi played as a defensive midfielder but he wasn't exactly defensive. We played with ONE out and out defensive midfielder. ONE not TWO. Only last season we played with two because of injuries.

There really ain't no reasoning with you.

Explain to me the season we came second, and why we got so many draws. Explain to me how in each of those games we set out for the win? Explain to me how so many fans bemoaned the negative tactics employed against the likes of Wigan, Sunderland etc. Rafa's main fault was worrying too much about the opposition, instead of making them worry about us. We became a team hard to beat, but not a team hard to contain.

[kris90210]

Of relevance to some of this discussion, does anybody recall a discussion a couple of years ago about the different tactical stages that the top managers try to achieve. I think it was Rinus Michels who came up with the idea, but it was also something Rafa believed in.

The final stage was the crushing machine style game of possession dominance, quick passing, free flowing attacking football similar to what Barca currently play (and LFC played at the end of 08-09 ). One of the earlier stages was based on defensive solidity and counter attacking. I think Michels was suggesting that this is something you resort ot against better teams when you are building up to the final stage.

Anyone remember this?

I do remember this, but the thread was on RAWK. Additionaly - if I recall correctly - a team playing at level 3 would be able to switch fluidly between any of the 3 levels depending on the situation.

Bloody interesting actually.

[danperkins]

Ok...right, so if we go back over old ground, there was never an air that Rafa was happy with a point, the pre match threads from the previous 5 seasons would bear fruit to this, and those draws in our nearly season were simply down to our inability to break down stubborn teams, nothing to do with our negative approach to football. That's fine, i must have misread the threads of yesteryear. Apologies.

Spot on, when you line up with 2 DM's at home even against weak oppostion, especially when those DM's are Lucas & Masch who are not exactly known for the attacking prowess, your setting out for a specific type of approach, which is solid and not to lose first and foremost.

[Lecter]

Ok...right, so if we go back over old ground, there was never an air that Rafa was happy with a point, the pre match threads from the previous 5 seasons would bear fruit to this, and those draws in our nearly season were simply down to our inability to break down stubborn teams, nothing to do with our negative approach to football. That's fine, i must have misread the threads of yesteryear. Apologies.

Negative approach too football

Wow if Rafa was negative what does that make Roy?

I never actually bought this that Rafa was too negative

He certainly wasnt as negative as Houllier was or Roy is

[Arn]

Ok...right, so if we go back over old ground, there was never an air that Rafa was happy with a point, the pre match threads from the previous 5 seasons would bear fruit to this, and those draws in our nearly season were simply down to our inability to break down stubborn teams, nothing to do with our negative approach to football. That's fine, i must have misread the threads of yesteryear. Apologies.

FFS I even proved how we totally outclassed the opposition in shots on and off the goal in game after game after game. Is that playing negative?

Is the FACT that we totally bossed the games at Anfield being negative against every team in the world?

You do talk a lot of crap.

[danperkins]

Holy Jebus

[Craig_H]

I'm a Rafa fan, but that's really not true is it Arn. Cast your mind back to our champions league encounters with Chelsea.

We don't know really what style of football Roy is trying to impliment yet. I'm just pleased it's moved on from the 'getting ****ed by Northampton' style. Results have started to go our way. Let's see what happens now over the next few games mate

I dont see your point here kris. CL games against Chelsea - he set up to win the TIE. Maybe not the 1st leg, but the objective is to go through, so he set up to win the tie.

Likewise in the group phase, the objective is to qualify, and preferably to top the group. You dont necessarily take those games on an individual basis, you look at the whole makeup of the group and set up to try and win it. Not necessary to win every game there.

But he set us up to achieve the objective - in league games, that's generally to win the game.

[Craig_H]

Scratch is right in what he says though Craig. In fact, I remember you making the same point a few times last season.

2 defensive midfielders at home to opposition we 'should' be beating was hugely contentious.

The point i would've been making, was that 2 DMs at home isnt the best way to win the 3 points. But the disagreement is in HOW you should go about getting the points. And yes, i agree that 2 DMs at home to ****e opposition wasnt the right way to do it.

I dont for one minute think rafa set us up to draw, though.

[Lecter]

Scratch is right in what he says though Craig. In fact, I remember you making the same point a few times last season.

2 defensive midfielders at home to opposition we 'should' be beating was hugely contentious.

To me Rafa was probably was at his most negative last season

Partially because I think he initially tried to open up and play but when it went to **** he swung the opposite direction - could Roy be doing this now??

The two defensive midfielders Alonso & Mascherano in the season we came second worked well imo

It kept the pressure on the opposition pinned them back in their own half and we forced the play, our problem was having that final bit of attacking flair quality that would have carried us over the line

I was happy that season to me it was a sound system that functioned well and needed tinkering with

But then Alonso left and the whole plan went to **** because the quality coming in couldnt do Xabi's job and that was keeping possession high up the pitch and dictating the play and tempo

[Craig_H]

Ok...right, so if we go back over old ground, there was never an air that Rafa was happy with a point, the pre match threads from the previous 5 seasons would bear fruit to this, and those draws in our nearly season were simply down to our inability to break down stubborn teams, nothing to do with our negative approach to football. That's fine, i must have misread the threads of yesteryear. Apologies.

I cant tell if you're being sarcastic here, or not

I would agree that the WAY rafa went about trying to win games (with 2 DMs at home to 'lesser' sides) wasnt the right method to use (IMO).

I do think he was trying to win games, though. He just thought the best way of doing it, was via a system with 2 DMs. I would disagree with that, when it comes to home games against Hull, Stoke etc.

[Arn]

There really ain't no reasoning with you.

Explain to me the season we came second, and why we got so many draws. Explain to me how in each of those games we set out for the win? Explain to me how so many fans bemoaned the negative tactics employed against the likes of Wigan, Sunderland etc. Rafa's main fault was worrying too much about the opposition, instead of making them worry about us. We became a team hard to beat, but not a team hard to contain.

I have already done that one time. Search and you will find it. We got so many draws because we didn't score enough goals even that we totally bossed almost every one of the games in question. The only thing the manager can do is to set up the team to boss the games and to set it up to create chances. He can't score the goals himself.

We created a lot of chances and totally bossed the games that means that Rafa got it right. He can't score the goals himself.

[Scratch]

Negative approach too football

Wow if Rafa was negative what does that make Roy?

I never actually bought this that Rafa was too negative

He certainly wasnt as negative as Houllier was or Roy is

Don't get me wrong, i'm not enamoured with Roy's style of football, cos so far it's not been much to write home about.

But Rafa was negative in my opinion, too often obsessed with containing the opposition and worrying about them instead of making them worry about us. The number of times i, and others, were crying out for him to ditch the 2 DM philosophy, unless against the big boys, in match threads.

Like i said, we became difficult to beat, but not difficult to contain...how many times did a small, defensive team stop us from scoring, thus costing us valuable points?

FFS I even proved how we totally outclassed the opposition in shots on and off the goal in game after game after game. Is that playing negative?

Is the FACT that we totally bossed the games at Anfield being negative against every team in the world?

You do talk a lot of crap.

Wow, you sound like Houllier, talking about shots on goal. I'm impressed. Shots from 35 yards still count on the stats, but they aren't all gonna trouble a keeper.

And you talk about at Anfield...what about away from home, did we go for the win each time, cos if we did, we ****ed up big time.

I may talk crap, but at least i ain't blinkered to Rafa's faults, cos the man did have some, and no matter how much you try to rewrite history, you won't be able to erase the memories of 2 DM's at home and away to footballing minnows. The negativity of those tactics is a part of Rafa's legacy, along with the trophies he won and the joy he brought.