Tide turning against Carragher?

[alunevans]

i think it'd be a mistake to drop him, especially if we are bringing kelly through.

against chelsea carragher was superb for kelly, coaching him through and helping him.

it'll do kelly the world of good to have such an experienced talker alongside him.

even when the lad got cramp, carra was looking after him.

i'd still be playing him personally, but at centre back not right back.

[Tee]

As has been said, he has been poor on the pitch for a while no, and off the pitch he is getting equally dodgy. No room for sentiment if we are to progress.

His position, IMO, is only so safe because we do not have another defender who can marshall that back line like him.

[merlboo]

Blimey, you've really got it in for him

We were wondering who the next target would be after H&G, and then Purslow - i guess we have our answer.

Hey ... i didn't write the piece

For the record i'd say these points are very much out there to be discussed


This purely footballing view though is not what the debate is about.

1. If he had said **** off to the fans last week, and had not been getting involved with Purslow getting rid of Rafa, becoming friend of Kelvin McKenzies radio station and NOTW's Bascombe

2. the lack of support for the previous manager yet supporting Hodgson at every turn, then people might be giving him the benefit of the doubt.

3. Added to this though, leaving the Spanish boys to say what we all wanted them to say about the yanks,

4. not playing for England to prolong his career yet effectively having no gap between last season and this by wanting World Cup glory,constantly bollocking and probably damaging the confidence of players in his team (-doesnt do it to Gerrard when he makes a howler),

5. refusing to play where the manager asks him and threatening to leave if he is not getting picked, all add to the weight of evidence which show him in a self serving scheming light.

6. The final confirmation of this view was the sneaking in, under the takeover success of NESV, of a 2 year contract, probably as a reward from Purslow. This really smacked of complete selfishness and represents a clandestine act at odds with someone who really loves the club.

number 4 is borderline as well

*** These are my views and my views only and are not in any way representative of any SOS policy***

[alunevans]

Firstly, Carragher's reputation was not built on one game. It's so distorted a view of the lad's career that it's almost offensive.

His success and status is not due to where he is from, but the type of person he is, that he kept to his roots, and that he's been an excellent centre back and an outstanding servant of Liverpool Football Club.

If Rafa picked him cos he is Scouse then this poster is saying Rafa is a ****e manager, which I don't think is the poster's view. I also don't believe that Rafa Benitez picked anyone he didn't want to. If ever there was a manager who was stubborn as a mule in defence of his own ideas it was Rafa, so this is so much hooey.

Do we know that Carra got Rafa the sack? I've heard talk of it, but nothing reliable. It may be as reliable as the stuff people said about Robbie Fowler. Just because there are rumours doesn't make something true. That needs backing up.

It seems unlikely that one player can get a manager the sack. But I'll keep an open yet skeptical mind if the evidence can be presented. I doubt it will be.

Talksport: is that actually McKenzie's these days? I thought he stopped having anything to do with it years ago. So that's a genuine question. I thought he'd gone. I remember investigating this in 2008 because I received an interview request on TalkSport myself and I checked that out before responding to it one way or the other.

My investigations said that McKenzie used to be involved but had sold up and ****ed off. Is this true?

If it is then it's not McKenzie's station any more than Harrod's belongs to Al Fayed, and then there's no charge to lay at Carra's door there, but let me know on that one because I may be wrong.

Supporting the current manager? Is that really a charge to be levelled against a Liverpool player, that he supports the Liverpool manager? I'd expect that from any Liverpool player until that manager has gone and a new manager brought in. What's the problem with that?

And so what if he played in the World Cup. So did Torres. So did Gerrard. So did everyone who could. Big whizz.

If Carra refuses to play where the manager asks why is he currently playing right back. I'm guessing he must have been asked to play up top alongside Torres or in goal because they're the only positions at the club he HASN'T played.

Sneaked in a 2 year contract?? A clandestine act? What utter bollocks. Professional footballer signs contract extension scandal!! How does this prove he hates the club?? How twisted is this. Reward from Purslow my arse.

Treats us as his Sunday League team. Again, my arse! So we should call him selfish because he's not quit the club? Really staggering.

And yet you post it and ask us to debate it's merits.

Well it has none. It's a hatchet job on a great LFC servant and if he did yell **** off after the Stoke game I hope he was looking straight at the twisted moron who posted that post.

I think it's a disgusting post frankly, filled with distortion, groundless statements, dismissal, and insult.

If anyone thinks Carra's age means he's on his way out as a player, then feel free to argue it. But this is just toxic and insulting and it shows that the poster can't string a credible argument together.

If the poster hates the lad, why doesn't he just say it instead of showing himself up with these kinds of points aimed at erasing Carragher from the LFC history books.

****e.

I've lifted this from another forum

Can its merits be debated ?



The irony of what many in the 'Carra is a hero' camp is firstly, no-one who kicks a ball for a living is a hero. End of.

Secondly, that hero tag is undeserved and largely based on one game in 2005 when there were 12 or 13 so called heroes of which at least 3 I can think of contributed so much more than him ( SG, Didi, Dudek).

His success and status is largely based on the fact that he is from the city and was picked many times when there are better players who werent picked due to foreign managers needing to create the 'scouse heartbeat'.

There has probably been an element of having to maintain a scouse quota with Ged and Rafa in the 2000's so from this perspective Carragher has probably benefitted more than most from still being picked despite not playing well. Its arguable that if he was French or Spanish he would have half the games under his belt that he currently has. He also benefitted massively from having Sami alongside him; the obvious shortcomings in Carraghers game being illuminated since Sami left with such dignity.

This purely footballing view though is not what the debate is about. If he had said **** off to the fans last week, and had not been getting involved with Purslow getting rid of Rafa, becoming friend of Kelvin McKenzies radio station and the lack of support for the previous manager yet supporting Hodgson at every turn, then people might be giving him the benefit of the doubt. Added to this though, leaving the Spanish boys to say what we all wanted them to say about the yanks, not playing for England to prolong his career yet effectively having no gap between last season and this by wanting World Cup glory,constantly bollocking and probably damaging the confidence of players in his team (-doesnt do it to Gerrard when he makes a howler), refusing to play where the manager asks him and threatening to leave if he is not getting picked, all add to the weight of evidence which show him in a self serving scheming light.

The final confirmation of this view was the sneaking in, under the takeover success of NESV, of a 2 year contract, probably as a reward from Purslow. This really smacked of complete selfishness and represents a clandestine act at odds with someone who really loves the club.

Every great footballers autobiography has a bit where they say they know their time is up ( Keegan getting skinned by Lawrenson etc}, but Carragher almost treats LFC as his Sunday league team by refusing to recognise he is well past it, as seen many times this season. The shame of it all is that the captain of the team has often been referred to as Stevie Me, when that accolade should have gone to a far more deserving member of the scouse heartbeat

[Craig_H]

Dunno why i'm bothering, but....

1. If he had said **** off to the fans last week, and had not been getting involved with Purslow getting rid of Rafa, becoming friend of Kelvin McKenzies radio station and NOTW's Bascombe
Quite a big if there, and we dont know what they were saying to him, to provoke a response.

2. the lack of support for the previous manager yet supporting Hodgson at every turn, then people might be giving him the benefit of the doubt.
As would happen with any new manager early in his tenure, and as did with Rafa when he first came.

3. Added to this though, leaving the Spanish boys to say what we all wanted them to say about the yanks,
Not sure that him not speaking out against the yanks to the tv cameras is the biggest crime going. He certainly has a dig at them in his book.

4. not playing for England to prolong his career yet effectively having no gap between last season and this by wanting World Cup glory,constantly bollocking and probably damaging the confidence of players in his team (-doesnt do it to Gerrard when he makes a howler),
He hardly played at the world cup anyway, i cant believe you're really throwing any serious criticism at him for going. He retired from england partly to help benefit his LFC career - stevie didnt - you having a pop at him?

5. refusing to play where the manager asks him and threatening to leave if he is not getting picked, all add to the weight of evidence which show him in a self serving scheming light.
Again, 'refusing' a very useful word to use, but we dont know the reality of it. As for the leaving part, plenty of players would consider leaving if they dont get games. Your choice of language here is mildly amusing.

6. The final confirmation of this view was the sneaking in, under the takeover success of NESV, of a 2 year contract, probably as a reward from Purslow. This really smacked of complete selfishness and represents a clandestine act at odds with someone who really loves the club.
If you were a player at LFC and your contract was winding down, would you refuse a new deal when offered?

[bertie]

i think youve got to be very careful with carra. at his best he was genuinely world class and 3 seasons ago he was one of the best centrebacks in the world.

no doubt his best days are probably behind him but the hunger and desire is still there. you need to consider his importance to the team, the young players, the fans and the whole club.

he along with gerrard is the heart and soul of the club and you just cant take that out of the team because he's a little past it. his importance to the liverpool football club goes beyond just what he is doing on the pitch. him and stevie stand for what is best about liverpool fc.

people talk about players with passion, pride, the right mentality and talent. these lads have it in spades and they can help bring on the next generation.

carragher could do a guardiola and manage us one day because nobody understands better than him what liverpool football club should stand for.

Nobody?? Really??? Maybe I'm alone in this but as much as I have appreciated his contribution from 2005-2009 he's not even in the stratosphere for an accolade such as that. Rafa ousting aside... As a Liverpool fan are u telling me that Jamie Carragher 'gets' it more than -

Kenny?
Ian Rush?
Rafa?
Robbie Fowler?
Gerrard?
Sami Hyypia?
John Barnes?
Gary Mac?
Pepe Reina?
Houllier?
Kevin Keegan?
Roy Evans?
Thommo?
Sammy Lee?

I could go on & I've only listed above those people who could come onto the coaching/mangt staff today and have had a special affinity to the club. I'll confindently state that my Grandad (who's sat/stood on the Kop for over 50 years) "understands what Liverpool Football Club" is about far more than an egomaniac like Carra will ever do.

That's frankly one of the most insulting & delusional comments I've seen on this forum... & that's saying something.

[alunevans]

just checked and mckenzie has had nothing to do with talksport since 2005, so why is that getting thrown at carragher. it just demonstrates the hatchet job being done on the lad in that post.

everyone who has been debating the football side and coming down against carragher is fine by me as that's football, but how low are some stooping in order to put the boot in.

[bertie]

just checked and mckenzie has had nothing to do with talksport since 2005, so why is that getting thrown at carragher. it just demonstrates the hatchet job being done on the lad in that post.

everyone who has been debating the football side and coming down against carragher is fine by me as that's football, but how low are some stooping in order to put the boot in.

The lad is past it on the football field and for that alone he absolutely SHOULD NOT have been handed a contract extension, yet alone one for £90k a week.

As far as the rest of the stuff goes, I can see your point... but.. Carra puts himself up there as some form of standard bearer for the club. I've met his auld fella (twice) and def get the feeling that just cos they 'switched sides' they are more worthy reds than those of us smart enough not to go blue from the start. My arse to that.

My post above was a response to a ridiculous and frankly absurd comment by el matador. But in response to ur post I'll come straight out and say it... I don't like Carra as a person. Maybe its because I grew up watching men playing for Liverpool who 'supported' their team-mates as opposed to bollicking them to play to he crowd. Maybe it's because my football heroes
were not in the business of putting their own careers ahead of the club. These are my opinions. But Carra doesn't meet either standard. I wouldn't have a problem with that only for he thinks he does.

[Rudo]

The lad is past it on the football field and for that alone he absolutely SHOULD NOT have been handed a contract extension, yet alone one for £90k a week.

As at as the rest of the stuff goes, I can see your point... but.. Carra outs himself up there as some form of standard bearer for he club. I've met his auld fella (twice) and def get the feeling that just cos they 'switched sides' they are more worthy reds than those of us smart enough not to go blue for the start. My arse to that.

My post above was a response to a ridiculous and frankly absurd comment by el matador. But in response to ur post I'll come straight out and say it... I don't like Carra as a person. Maybe its because I grew up watching men playing for Liverpool who 'supported' their team-mates as opposed to bollicking them to play to he crowd. Maybe it's because my football heroes
were not in the business of putting their own careers ahead of the club. These are my opinions. But Carra doesn't meet either standard. I wouldn't have a problem with that only for he thinks he does.

Personally i dont get that 'switching sides' lark, doesn't sit right with me. With Carragher, he's a fully fledged Liverpool man but that's because he's represented the Club that pay his wages and have done for about 15 year.

His Dad on the other, switched from Everton to Liverpool because his Son became a professional footballer with Liverpool? That's a bit ****ed up imo.

[merlboo]

1. NOTW links and the dalliances with the antithesis of the Liverpool Way ... Chris Bascombe



2. "I don't want to criticise the last manager [Rafael Benitez] but it was time for a change and when a new manager comes in there is optimism and emthusiasm," he added.

3. Was it that he didn't want to compromise that new deal ? Going public ... can you quote the book ?

4. I did say 4 was borderline ...

5. He stated that he wouldn't play at Right Back up at Boro' 2 years or so back in his book did he not ? someone quoted the episode recently... it was fairly common knowledge at the time i recall and Skrtel subsequently got raped there by Stewart Downing

He plays there regularly now

6. This is the one which poses the most questions and ties in with his possible complicity in Rafa's Fait Accompli

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/8554078.stm

Buried in on the Big News day, a £90,000 a week contract for a 32 year old defender ... a deal the previous manager wouldn't sanction

9 Nov 2010 ...''Rafa hints at this when he mentions that Christian Purslow plotted (sounded out) senior players to oust him.'' (Can't find that press conference of a week or so ago)

I'll edit the Mckenzie Reference ... he did move on in 2005


You may have seen my appreciation before to LFC's number 23 ... you may not have

here it is again from last week


If i can again, and try and give my opinions on James Lee Duncan Carragher a bit of balance

Loved him as a player ... his 10 years service ... the high points , the low points ... i'll take them all for Istanbul and his '' never say die '' attitude,

The mental strength to come back from that horrific leg break even better

A fabulous ambassador for Liverpool Football Club and his consumate professionalism and contributions in putting us back with the Crem' de la Crem'

His tireless work for Charity and most recently ,the 23 Foundation specifically

His invaluable work in the local communities with the next generations to come

His help in getting the '' Free Michael Shields '' shirts on the players in the warmups of a home game a couple of seasons back

His donation to Andy Burnham (but i won't stray to much into the political fields)

''15 minutes that shook the world''

All this and more

However ... everything that i've posted earlier is true to my knowledge and gives me no pleasure in posting here or anywhere for that matter

As i said earlier , it wasn't what i signed up for as a Liverpool fan but i won't be blind to what i am seeing and hearing

I wouldn't do it for anyone else and i won't make exceptions here

[Neil Young]

My perceptions of Carragher's attitude towards Benitez (in the last season at least) and Hodgson make it difficult to feel quite as warm towards him as I once did but the hostility to him shown on this thread is totally unbelievable.

Some comments aren't just unjustified, they are truly pathetic. Let's try for a bit of balance, eh?

[Reece]

My perceptions of Carragher's attitude towards Benitez (in the last season at least) and Hodgson make it difficult to feel quite as warm towards him as I once did but the hostility to him shown on this thread is totally unbelievable.

Some comments aren't just unjustified, they are truly pathetic. Let's try for a bit of balance, eh?

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter too

[Fierce]

My perceptions of Carragher's attitude towards Benitez (in the last season at least) and Hodgson make it difficult to feel quite as warm towards him as I once did but the hostility to him shown on this thread is totally unbelievable.

Some comments aren't just unjustified, they are truly pathetic. Let's try for a bit of balance, eh?

Didn't put it quite as well as I would have, natch, but I agree with the sentiments

[Lecter]

I've lifted this from another forum

Can its merits be debated ?



The irony of what many in the 'Carra is a hero' camp is firstly, no-one who kicks a ball for a living is a hero. End of.

Secondly, that hero tag is undeserved and largely based on one game in 2005 when there were 12 or 13 so called heroes of which at least 3 I can think of contributed so much more than him ( SG, Didi, Dudek).

His success and status is largely based on the fact that he is from the city and was picked many times when there are better players who werent picked due to foreign managers needing to create the 'scouse heartbeat'.

There has probably been an element of having to maintain a scouse quota with Ged and Rafa in the 2000's so from this perspective Carragher has probably benefitted more than most from still being picked despite not playing well. Its arguable that if he was French or Spanish he would have half the games under his belt that he currently has. He also benefitted massively from having Sami alongside him; the obvious shortcomings in Carraghers game being illuminated since Sami left with such dignity.

This purely footballing view though is not what the debate is about. If he had said **** off to the fans last week, and had not been getting involved with Purslow getting rid of Rafa, becoming friend of Kelvin McKenzies radio station and the lack of support for the previous manager yet supporting Hodgson at every turn, then people might be giving him the benefit of the doubt. Added to this though, leaving the Spanish boys to say what we all wanted them to say about the yanks, not playing for England to prolong his career yet effectively having no gap between last season and this by wanting World Cup glory,constantly bollocking and probably damaging the confidence of players in his team (-doesnt do it to Gerrard when he makes a howler), refusing to play where the manager asks him and threatening to leave if he is not getting picked, all add to the weight of evidence which show him in a self serving scheming light.

The final confirmation of this view was the sneaking in, under the takeover success of NESV, of a 2 year contract, probably as a reward from Purslow. This really smacked of complete selfishness and represents a clandestine act at odds with someone who really loves the club.

Every great footballers autobiography has a bit where they say they know their time is up ( Keegan getting skinned by Lawrenson etc}, but Carragher almost treats LFC as his Sunday league team by refusing to recognise he is well past it, as seen many times this season. The shame of it all is that the captain of the team has often been referred to as Stevie Me, when that accolade should have gone to a far more deserving member of the scouse heartbeat

What a load of ****ing ****e

Whatever the rights or wrong of him being involved in Rafa leaving and new contracts aside as a defender he was first rate to distort his ability in the manner you have tends to make people blank your other arguments

[Lecter]

Personally i dont get that 'switching sides' lark, doesn't sit right with me. With Carragher, he's a fully fledged Liverpool man but that's because he's represented the Club that pay his wages and have done for about 15 year.

His Dad on the other, switched from Everton to Liverpool because his Son became a professional footballer with Liverpool? That's a bit ****ed up imo.

I dont think it is too ****ed up plenty of families of professional football players have switched their allegiances